From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "Drew Adams" Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.bugs Subject: bug#10308: 24.0.92; regression: *Help* ruined for toggling read-only Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2011 23:35:31 -0800 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: dough.gmane.org 1324021041 2883 80.91.229.12 (16 Dec 2011 07:37:21 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2011 07:37:21 +0000 (UTC) To: 10308@debbugs.gnu.org Original-X-From: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Fri Dec 16 08:37:17 2011 Return-path: Envelope-to: geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([140.186.70.17]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RbSM1-0003Y1-2E for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Fri, 16 Dec 2011 08:37:17 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:42377 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RbSLz-0008Nd-Ox for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; 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Fri, 16 Dec 2011 01:35:34 -0600 Original-Received: from dradamslap1 (/10.159.43.212) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Thu, 15 Dec 2011 23:35:33 -0800 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 Thread-Index: Acy7xUowewYWgm6wTIa3tvzTSOSJag== X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.6157 X-Source-IP: acsinet22.oracle.com [141.146.126.238] X-Auth-Type: Internal IP X-CT-RefId: str=0001.0A090201.4EEAF4C7.005B,ss=1,re=0.000,fgs=0 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 1) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list Resent-Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2011 02:38:02 -0500 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-Received-From: 140.186.70.43 X-BeenThere: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org List-Id: "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.bugs:55003 Archived-At: In all Emacs releases prior to Emacs 24 (and even in 24 up until the middle of 2011), you could toggle buffer `*Help*' and edit text there relatively normally. Only a very few of the ordinary keyboard keys, such as `RET', had any special meaning. In particular, typically self-inserting keys inserted, and deleting keys deleted. Turning off read-only in *Help* has long been useful for composing and testing *Help* displays (e.g. doc strings). I, and I know others as well, have used this feature for decades. This regression removes it. Now, the typically self-inserting keys do nothing - no message, nada. `C-h k' for a typical key such as `f' says it is undefined. Why? What good is that? Isn't it enough that *Help* is by default read-only? Why fiddle with the key bindings like that? And `DEL' (Backspace) gives the ridiculous error message `Beginning of buffer' (huh?), no matter where point is when you hit it. Yet `C-d', `M-d', etc. still delete text normally. And `M-q' still works (thank goodness). And `q' quits, and `z' kills the buffer , even when the buffer has been toggled to writable! This is crazy. The help-mode keys should have no such effects when the buffer is made writable. Try Emacs 23, to see the difference - when read-only, `q' quits; when writable, it self-inserts - useful. What is the point in a user making the buffer writable now? What can you do with it writable that you could not do with it read-only? In effect, we've lost a useful writable help mode, since it is now nearly the same as read-only *Help* (only a few keys such as `C-d' are exceptionally still usable to edit). Now, to be able to edit *Help* you need to change its mode, instead of just hitting `C-x C-q'. And if you are iteratively fine-tuning doc for *Help*, then each time you refresh it from developing code, you need to change the mode again before you can edit it. Please revert this regression. It is inconsistent (e.g. `DEL' vs `C-d'), makes Emacs less useful, and serves no constructive purpose (AFAICT - what can you do with a writable *Help* now?). It is an incompatible change affecting users, yet it is not even mentioned in the NEWS. AFAIK, it was not proposed for discussion on emacs-devel either. *Help* is not just a passive output message - it is a useful Emacs buffer. And part of that use is editing its content. This is Emacs. Let's not put obstacles in the way of users trying to interact with the most flexible, self-documenting, customizable editor. If intentional, this change is misguided. In GNU Emacs 24.0.92.1 (i386-mingw-nt5.1.2600) of 2011-12-06 on MARVIN Windowing system distributor `Microsoft Corp.', version 5.1.2600 configured using `configure --with-gcc (4.6) --no-opt --cflags -ID:/devel/emacs/libs/libXpm-3.5.8/include -ID:/devel/emacs/libs/libXpm-3.5.8/src -ID:/devel/emacs/libs/libpng-dev_1.4.3-1/include -ID:/devel/emacs/libs/zlib-dev_1.2.5-2/include -ID:/devel/emacs/libs/giflib-4.1.4-1/include -ID:/devel/emacs/libs/jpeg-6b-4/include -ID:/devel/emacs/libs/tiff-3.8.2-1/include -ID:/devel/emacs/libs/gnutls-2.10.1/include --ldflags -LD:/devel/emacs/libs/gnutls-2.10.1/lib'