From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Arthur Miller Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.bugs Subject: bug#21695: 25.0.50; Change most occurrences of `setq' in Emacs manual to `customize-set-variable'? Really? Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2021 05:43:06 +0200 Message-ID: References: <97d3ff2c-9e72-4004-88a9-08130ac99a74@default> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="35585"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.50 (gnu/linux) Cc: ke.vigouroux@laposte.net, 21695@debbugs.gnu.org, larsi@gnus.org To: Richard Stallman Original-X-From: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Tue Aug 31 05:46:20 2021 Return-path: Envelope-to: geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1mKuj5-00093R-9v for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org; Tue, 31 Aug 2021 05:46:20 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:43436 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mKuj4-0002ye-58 for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org; Mon, 30 Aug 2021 23:46:18 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:36112) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mKugs-0001AD-B0 for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Mon, 30 Aug 2021 23:44:02 -0400 Original-Received: from debbugs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.43]:49288) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mKugs-0002eV-3a for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Mon, 30 Aug 2021 23:44:02 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-debbugs by debbugs.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mKugr-0005ob-UV for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Mon, 30 Aug 2021 23:44:01 -0400 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Resent-From: Arthur Miller Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2021 03:44:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 21695 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs Original-Received: via spool by 21695-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B21695.163038140422292 (code B ref 21695); Tue, 31 Aug 2021 03:44:01 +0000 Original-Received: (at 21695) by debbugs.gnu.org; 31 Aug 2021 03:43:24 +0000 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:60834 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mKugC-0005nO-J0 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 30 Aug 2021 23:43:24 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-oln040092073058.outbound.protection.outlook.com ([40.92.73.58]:59140 helo=EUR04-HE1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mKug6-0005n5-C7 for 21695@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 30 Aug 2021 23:43:18 -0400 ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; s=arcselector9901; d=microsoft.com; cv=none; b=eFLY5RfuQpm9VMIVBetBSZqIHeme4tTwe1QfcDfAIrFWvjkJqjMNOM5svA2N2jOR2denkLGvQQFf7MB2UZ1qGRFzeZkKOsS435lMYAIGdokJWTXE8Vc1ShJadd+r9UDeUl/4jpnsiYKtcDPnUPoWD8BNfS9PxaHyXzzO1zW+RZDgg8CZKD7mQsFOTYx4ug82GBPZ3LhM/9aOoj86YE56xvj5+GHlFbKKTB9+DNuElnJworeTBmYLVi/wykFsKazhRg+R5d+HyPbgG1d94qu7pMbsQkpAnplw1iP1XwxGOYmwvYZjlojITGWAjL9bCPohkcpKTp3l6a6SoI+PnWIQ7A== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com; s=arcselector9901; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=ZZuHl9DaSQ07eme/yqNEhMffVKc+HSWpihX4amV1ekE=; b=m8uxeFVpBH2nq4wZA2aqbR0TikRMg1pzrx/8TQCX70NcsuAySn9WNKahEAZJR5Mq9n0Fu7xOJNpi7KW6xm+Tb4P58OaIc4cayJp7O56BmzG3XQYODDx8xy4jpmyJsuckDeb13n8Lmptq9hOw05vRurLsAC0Zi9j/JuthLkTf31d7BeQwVmrhRDAPLtrL6bLNRWpolwGCJSTln1DmqJ0UpUSupenH/av14E9bzl66AJRnLS8ASlDSkFmSsFhO8vp1KWPXi9dsD9e39rQIhcTnkhKCQJkqBD+oG/rXc6MfMowRKwd1UADnesTCTkXyuX0lBCGz/SQJw5fbvPRlmQwDIQ== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.microsoft.com 1; spf=none; dmarc=none; dkim=none; arc=none DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=live.com; s=selector1; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=ZZuHl9DaSQ07eme/yqNEhMffVKc+HSWpihX4amV1ekE=; b=gUbsnI96T+PkWylZSZttCqDglwKUaYj3foK+Y+SvPEjnL7J8BaQBdJWMayoSPljBlrvgCf9MrpbGPx319i7A8WQHiq+yvgWIJa9fw4aWo432+ZtP/Of+FHS9ifLoloUS4kVYTx0uXUprtZXMQnZp31KZCjbC6rWzaz5Vin18PeR2b37sE2RASG+YJgaqiYrdSUlyup+0VLevdaJhguZi1CNS4HHNFR1SYq0e1yoVKePSxmnkwEkfY0k9LVNPq5r/yfpnq13PJRZsk7ald3EK+kUK9hj80qSoC+prNBVZ0s4qKLNFY0uMRay5HWfmkg1rbxquUVyQxQwBixneEz7QDg== Original-Received: from DB3EUR04FT031.eop-eur04.prod.protection.outlook.com (2a01:111:e400:7e0c::41) by DB3EUR04HT161.eop-eur04.prod.protection.outlook.com (2a01:111:e400:7e0c::442) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.4457.17; Tue, 31 Aug 2021 03:43:07 +0000 Original-Received: from AM9PR09MB4977.eurprd09.prod.outlook.com (2a01:111:e400:7e0c::50) by DB3EUR04FT031.mail.protection.outlook.com (2a01:111:e400:7e0c::239) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.4457.17 via Frontend Transport; Tue, 31 Aug 2021 03:43:07 +0000 X-IncomingTopHeaderMarker: OriginalChecksum:AEF3932E0817030F790B0E0CFBDD564BB31642617812EDF9DC52844F367FE4B5; UpperCasedChecksum:68C779359B56B0A147327CF0687AB95A0FD64C9FC238022150F27E805CF6C65C; SizeAsReceived:7769; Count:46 Original-Received: from AM9PR09MB4977.eurprd09.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::35f2:ac79:ee50:c46c]) by AM9PR09MB4977.eurprd09.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::35f2:ac79:ee50:c46c%8]) with mapi id 15.20.4457.024; Tue, 31 Aug 2021 03:43:07 +0000 In-Reply-To: (Richard Stallman's message of "Mon, 30 Aug 2021 23:06:58 -0400") X-TMN: [7YOxNWyaLPjs5wQfEi2DpBHyxpxWNQ4d] X-ClientProxiedBy: AM6P195CA0012.EURP195.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM (2603:10a6:209:81::25) To AM9PR09MB4977.eurprd09.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:20b:304::20) X-Microsoft-Original-Message-ID: <87o89e46ut.fsf@live.com> X-MS-Exchange-MessageSentRepresentingType: 1 Original-Received: from pascal.homepc (81.232.177.30) by AM6P195CA0012.EURP195.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM (2603:10a6:209:81::25) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.4457.20 via Frontend Transport; Tue, 31 Aug 2021 03:43:06 +0000 X-MS-PublicTrafficType: Email X-IncomingHeaderCount: 46 X-EOPAttributedMessage: 0 X-MS-Office365-Filtering-Correlation-Id: 1331dd21-7a6f-4f9b-6119-08d96c3171e3 X-MS-TrafficTypeDiagnostic: DB3EUR04HT161: X-Microsoft-Antispam: BCL:0; X-Microsoft-Antispam-Message-Info: xnNYABGTbjIQsh/CfyAD/8BqUwmwUFeZkbJFfDp0hIUWLpsIM3H6ffbf4dDuxUmsbF05nnIxWkyLUIYdE/8YTbLVWs0g4zLEv+XU8vjhyNVAmxpHqVWdrhcIy7+rVjfNy+5zLOqwIljRBCsSpWsFwPlG3gypqnJPL809bkTTSIN+V9ezG8biw2IJuy2QeN+ff5o4TcGaB4jo9tRT1rK4Fh5xRco24BQOcw4daPPjotsEPDrVaF/5/NAlfaQdrWSjLUlE0FdaUoc+giPZBqRA1pyVr+cf4i7m2jhuUjam5YQgWxjAbgyuHWYNpXydA8AxSgh//cd8E9d7Tnvg/jDPxWfJfgYS7LNCza2ID6CgALsiJXK5w9kxv7m8iEaQsKo3ps+EN5pNaTflpuZuJo1ypkZm0dWNO/enCLjpAKKU7SZFtxff11T36ICMHIlnjZS3 X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-ChunkCount: 1 X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-0: DoX12Ob/3j2mP6L+ByK7ySQ8cbPnbfRYIwe7j74ZICWapSqp6aOhhQy3+QmZPuddHMcz1a4uPdbis8UFpB8aPFuB5fU3So3gOqoFWeaLEObiR/joCPWTa+WQoHnkE2GJ7zD6+E9dqB5rPEIHWS2PNg== X-OriginatorOrg: live.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 1331dd21-7a6f-4f9b-6119-08d96c3171e3 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-OriginalArrivalTime: 31 Aug 2021 03:43:07.4149 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-FromEntityHeader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Id: 84df9e7f-e9f6-40af-b435-aaaaaaaaaaaa X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: DB3EUR04FT031.eop-eur04.prod.protection.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Anonymous X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-FromEntityHeader: Internet X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-RMS-PersistedConsumerOrg: 00000000-0000-0000-0000-000000000000 X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: DB3EUR04HT161 X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list X-BeenThere: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org List-Id: "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "bug-gnu-emacs" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.bugs:213076 Archived-At: Richard Stallman writes: > [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] > [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] > [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > > There are a few customization options that are not really variables > and need to be set with `customize-set-variable'. > > However, the rest of them are variables and normally set with `setq' > and friends. > > Telling users to set them all with `customize-set-variable' will be a > significant hassle. What's more, users will disregard this instruction. > `setq' is easy to remember and we all know it. > > Having a recommendation in the manual which users will generally > reject is in itself a problem. > > I think we should address this some other way. Here are some ideas. > > * indicate the few customization options > which are not really variables. > * tell people how to check whether > a customization options is really a variable. > * warn about setq for a customization option that isn't really a variable. Not many people seem to prefer customize to simply setq-ing in their init file, so I think that what you propose is a much better alternative.