From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Lennart Borgman Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.bugs Subject: bug#7269: bug #7269: 24.0.50; opening a file via emacsclient -c moves the mouse cursor to, the top left of the frames buffer. Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2010 01:51:47 +0100 Message-ID: References: <87y69q55un.fsf@yahoo.de> <4CDEF181.6010503@knaff.lu> <4CDEFD4E.1090603@knaff.lu> <4CDF0235.8030301@knaff.lu> <4CDF05BF.7040805@knaff.lu> <4CDF0CD1.3020305@knaff.lu> <4CDF1D54.5020000@knaff.lu> <4CDF2B61.90309@knaff.lu> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-Trace: dough.gmane.org 1289697268 15496 80.91.229.12 (14 Nov 2010 01:14:28 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2010 01:14:28 +0000 (UTC) Cc: 7269@debbugs.gnu.org To: Alain Knaff Original-X-From: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sun Nov 14 02:14:24 2010 Return-path: Envelope-to: geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1PHRAk-0008VM-Nb for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Sun, 14 Nov 2010 02:14:23 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:33050 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1PHRAj-0003Z8-N8 for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Sat, 13 Nov 2010 20:14:21 -0500 Original-Received: from [140.186.70.92] (port=34726 helo=eggs.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1PHRAZ-0003Ux-PZ for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sat, 13 Nov 2010 20:14:13 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1PHRAT-0002ij-Sn for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sat, 13 Nov 2010 20:14:11 -0500 Original-Received: from debbugs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.43]:37423) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1PHRAT-0002if-Jy for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sat, 13 Nov 2010 20:14:05 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-debbugs by debbugs.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1PHQlG-0007Jx-IZ; Sat, 13 Nov 2010 19:48:02 -0500 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Resent-From: Lennart Borgman Original-Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Resent-To: owner@debbugs.gnu.org Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2010 00:48:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 7269 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: Original-Received: via spool by 7269-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B7269.128969563928129 (code B ref 7269); Sun, 14 Nov 2010 00:48:02 +0000 Original-Received: (at 7269) by debbugs.gnu.org; 14 Nov 2010 00:47:19 +0000 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1PHQkY-0007Je-Vx for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 13 Nov 2010 19:47:19 -0500 Original-Received: from mail-ey0-f172.google.com ([209.85.215.172]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1PHQkW-0007JZ-Bm for 7269@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 13 Nov 2010 19:47:17 -0500 Original-Received: by eyd10 with SMTP id 10so2493086eyd.3 for <7269@debbugs.gnu.org>; Sat, 13 Nov 2010 16:52:08 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:mime-version:received:in-reply-to :references:from:date:message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type; bh=Ih6p0vr4rSNqgmqn0Zc0J+MbOMS6aPmxWhq2wtnads8=; b=QjSiGUlItBuu97sSZ0UrE5XxOEJTArrGaUeSJpiVjzpwDSbX1vHVr+ca9l1BfrIq2L PRVScunw3ygI4Swn/5sbd4ll2EdB6JMSKhSHxfKD4J0veyqtSbH0G6CoMUABWG3xrv82 QIxCzbcraxg9ikcAzwg7J7c0DKToq9v160YUo= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type; b=MooLgzZe9tB6qRATVGmaj8K6/Xen143/7ZivvrkQNKw+jtUAJngWpXrqNw4kSQrS0g iJ7LrLgrt9TVDQfhsxWWNhOVXoRD6ZZlSiXHfWdJSOzyWs2eiq4HM9PYEIktYpLNCAkP QOgcurPANV8La4Kob1SE1JyYf5PuvHlWTJWK0= Original-Received: by 10.213.28.131 with SMTP id m3mr4424398ebc.58.1289695928067; Sat, 13 Nov 2010 16:52:08 -0800 (PST) Original-Received: by 10.213.22.135 with HTTP; Sat, 13 Nov 2010 16:51:47 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <4CDF2B61.90309@knaff.lu> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list Resent-Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2010 19:48:02 -0500 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-BeenThere: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org List-Id: "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.bugs:41602 Archived-At: On Sun, Nov 14, 2010 at 1:20 AM, Alain Knaff wrote: > > Why does this have to feel like a cheesy rape trial? :-) Not sure ;-) > Hopefully there is a standardized API for "get user's attention > unintrusively"... There is the "always on top" feature for windows. >> I do >> not know if there is anything else that can glue things together. >> Maybe the semantic has not been specified clearly. > > Why can't the answer to "when is it allowed to grab focus" simply be > "never"? Because it would be very inconventient. Take for example the case when a user double-clicks on a file in the file manager (on w32 it is Windows Explorer). Then the purpose is to open it in the associated application, for example a word processor. Is there any reason not to give the word processor the focus in this case? (Please remember this is a very common use case.) > Somehow, other apps don't feel the need to mess in a similar way with > keyboard focus. Of course Emacs should behave similar to other apps on the platform as far as possible. At least in my opinion. > Now, I understand that it is a windows compatibility thingy. I am not sure that it is w32 only. I would be very surprised if it was. >> I think it is about cooperation and some pieces might be missing, see above. > > Yeah, that's the point. Window manager assume well-behaved (cooperative) > apps, but apparently some aren't. Hence the need of "focus stealing > prevention" and similar settings, which unfortunately don't always work > (either they are ineffective, or have undesirable side-effects...) I think the apps can not solve this all by themselves. But looking into the possible semantics of this is far beyond what we actually talking about now. >>>>> But apparently, there is more than one method to grab focus, and some >>>>> aren't blocked by this >>>> >>>> Yes. In some situations the users choice must be overriden. >>> >>> Which would these be? >> >> Urgent messages. > > Wouldn't "flashing" the app's outline be more appropriate? Just imagine > emacs wanted to display the urgent message "Disk filling up. Is it ok to > delete file xyz.abc to make space (y/n)", but the user just started to > type "yesterday" into another app? In some situations it is not enough. (For example if continuing doing something might crash the computer or destroy data.) >> I don't think this is a w32 specific problem at all. > > Well, I think it is. According to you, on Windows, most apps grab focus > when launched. No. The window manager gives them focus. > From my observation, on Linux almost none do. Shouldn't > that tell you something? Why does emacs want to be the white elephant here? I am sure it does not want to be that. Did you try changing the option `server-raise-frame' in Emacs? >> There are bigger issues than this. The whole platform GNU/Linux exists >> because people want a free platform. Whether it should behave like w32 >> is something that should be evaluated mainly against this. > > IMHO, solidity, usability and reliability played as big a role in the > popularity of Linux (amongst its primary audience) than its freeness (be > it as in beer or as in speech). Why do we have to throw away our > advantages to pander to the masses? I doubt that there actually would be any GNU/Linux if it was only for programmers. It is too expensive for that. A lot of people would not invest their free time to develop it - and without that the price would be too high. It is or could be a treasure.