From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: uzibalqa via "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors" Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.bugs Subject: bug#64692: Better descriptions of Cons Cells and Dotted Notation with real-life syntax Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2023 11:19:14 +0000 Message-ID: <9mpth_kCQ9iv3_-Tk2wLiHgbpRyj12nL_rNlECoWNsqlkzrCzZDRaCABpdCQXsLyuxPVJD2dyvKlyrxzTMFPVYAfBww6lZqk8DAaWD_Kvk8=@proton.me> References: <83pm4p7ane.fsf@gnu.org> Reply-To: uzibalqa Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="8294"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: 64692-done@debbugs.gnu.org To: Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Tue Jul 18 13:20:14 2023 Return-path: Envelope-to: geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1qLikY-0001zL-4t for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org; Tue, 18 Jul 2023 13:20:14 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qLikP-0000QI-2e; Tue, 18 Jul 2023 07:20:05 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qLikM-0000L2-2C for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 18 Jul 2023 07:20:02 -0400 Original-Received: from debbugs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:5::43]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qLikL-00062R-Op for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 18 Jul 2023 07:20:01 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-debbugs by debbugs.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qLikL-0006Nq-Jo for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 18 Jul 2023 07:20:01 -0400 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Resent-From: uzibalqa Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2023 11:20:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 64692 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs Original-Received: via spool by 64692-done@debbugs.gnu.org id=D64692.168967917724503 (code D ref 64692); Tue, 18 Jul 2023 11:20:01 +0000 Original-Received: (at 64692-done) by debbugs.gnu.org; 18 Jul 2023 11:19:37 +0000 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:51712 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qLijw-0006N8-Pw for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 18 Jul 2023 07:19:37 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-40140.protonmail.ch ([185.70.40.140]:54947) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qLijr-0006Mp-KU for 64692-done@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 18 Jul 2023 07:19:36 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=proton.me; s=protonmail; t=1689679165; x=1689938365; bh=Gpy30NN9iFsZO0XkBE/aFqg1jXgCaEhWWmvq9HotMjs=; h=Date:To:From:Cc:Subject:Message-ID:In-Reply-To:References: Feedback-ID:From:To:Cc:Date:Subject:Reply-To:Feedback-ID: Message-ID:BIMI-Selector; b=M3gvOGB1AlwaEb27iULEy19obmMMRxLtKLCA8NQAVkNHf0kZ0gTSc4M/hM8wteBLn DPgO6tTxpbrJQSpW3qp/2GIxjGhb0QnxSjXi7bLlVtY3wdPTKSdSzV48y0M9eVrkT5 hG7N0Ayuf5p1cVhxcSlaLjHTdxS+QDdCOLSbK2IfX87Bj0ok7Wmv1hsNtL48/m83mR IWFfHJID3WYmyBheOSMfBEzPJ8j3JyuEoOWdB0A4WnzuBOjeMsc4Lx0Jc+na6efJjv DYuCr2E5Ej9U3+u9w98XzA3nHFkqsEMu7gS23qXBXrOLIc28CnbHD0of8jOoZfkLDR wQ3uYJ9t5ko8g== In-Reply-To: <83pm4p7ane.fsf@gnu.org> Feedback-ID: 52887082:user:proton X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list X-BeenThere: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org List-Id: "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.bugs:265441 Archived-At: ------- Original Message ------- On Tuesday, July 18th, 2023 at 10:53 PM, Eli Zaretskii wrote= : > > Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2023 20:17:19 +0000 > > From: uzibalqa via "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, > > the Swiss army knife of text editors" bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org > >=20 > > Have been looking at the documentation of menu-item described as > >=20 > > (menu-item item-name real-binding . item-property-list) > >=20 > > This requires a good understanding of Cons Cells and Dotted Notation. > > But I do not see a serious attempt to explain this. >=20 >=20 > There's a node "Cons Cells" in the manual which explains that. >=20 > The cons cells are so central to Emacs Lisp that it is impractical to > explain them in each place where we use them in the manual, or even > provide a cross-reference in each such place. The suggestion is to improve and expand the section on Cons Cells and Dotte= d Notation not only in the reference manual but also in the introduction manual. Unwi= llingness to not even provide a cross-reference is a disservice. =20 > > Whereas the Emacs > > Lisp Reference Manual isn't designed as a tutorial with explanations, > > the "Introduction to Programming in Emacs Lisp" simply refers to the > > "Emacs Lisp Reference Manual" for understanding Cons Cells and Dotted N= otation. > >=20 > > This means that the "Introduction to Programming in Emacs Lisp" would b= enefit > > from some real-life list syntax. Currently I find it short and far from= real-life. >=20 >=20 > The Introduction manual has a node "List diagrammed", to which you > will get if you type "i cons cell RET", which describes that, with > pictures. No, I am talking about a direct discussion of Cons Cells and Dotted Notatio= n, not about list diagrams. =20 The specification that=20 (a b c . dlist)=20 results in a single list should be described rather than having everybody= =20 figure it out independently. Whilst using a b c in not so bad, if I but=20 such code in a package, most experienced programmers would complain that I am being too cryptic even though they should have the ability to decipher whatever I'm doing. Real-life examples of interesting situations from the= =20 emacs code base should also be used if you want people to transition from toy descriptions to real life work. > > In general, the construction of menus should be better described as it = is currently > > too theoretical in the reference. >=20 >=20 > I disagree that it's "theoretical": it's quite practical, and even > includes an example. The examples are incomplete because making submenus is avoided and there ar= e no calls to 'define-key-after'. And because the reference is not for examples as th= e experienced ones insist, that information should be put in the 'Introduction Guide' ins= tead. Besides, now that it is suggested that calls be replaced with keymap-set-af= ter and 'keymap-set', the reference and introduction must reflect the change to the= new calls. =20 > So I don't think we have any problems in this area, and I'm therefore > closing this bug. How very convenient when new users are telling you that the information is = not useful enough.