From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Drew Adams Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.bugs Subject: bug#35887: 26.1; global-eldoc-mode minibuffer noise is very annoying Date: Mon, 27 May 2019 15:31:33 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <9d84f6c2-a319-495d-a967-25c1c66cee5d@default> References: <87sgt3k4w0.fsf@hysteria.proulx.com> <85tvdjd1gy.fsf@gmail.com> <20190524151617874644844@bob.proulx.com> <87woibbpxb.fsf@mail.linkov.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: blaine.gmane.org; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:195.159.176.226"; logging-data="123285"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@blaine.gmane.org" Cc: 35887@debbugs.gnu.org, npostavs@gmail.com, Bob Proulx To: Juri Linkov , martin rudalics Original-X-From: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Tue May 28 00:32:13 2019 Return-path: Envelope-to: geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by blaine.gmane.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1hVOA9-000Vwx-KK for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; 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Mon, 27 May 2019 22:31:39 GMT Original-Received: from userv0122.oracle.com (userv0122.oracle.com [156.151.31.75]) by aserp3020.oracle.com with ESMTP id 2sqh72ts93-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Mon, 27 May 2019 22:31:39 +0000 Original-Received: from abhmp0012.oracle.com (abhmp0012.oracle.com [141.146.116.18]) by userv0122.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id x4RMVYlF000316; Mon, 27 May 2019 22:31:34 GMT In-Reply-To: <87woibbpxb.fsf@mail.linkov.net> X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9.1 (1003210) [OL 16.0.4849.0 (x86)] X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=6000 definitions=9270 signatures=668687 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 suspectscore=0 malwarescore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 mlxscore=0 mlxlogscore=777 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1810050000 definitions=main-1905270158 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=6000 definitions=9270 signatures=668687 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 priorityscore=1501 malwarescore=0 suspectscore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 clxscore=1015 lowpriorityscore=0 mlxscore=0 impostorscore=0 mlxlogscore=811 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1810050000 definitions=main-1905270158 X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 209.51.188.43 X-BeenThere: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org List-Id: "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "bug-gnu-emacs" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.bugs:159832 Archived-At: > I turn =E2=80=98global-eldoc-mode=E2=80=99 off too, but I think it should= be enabled > by default to demonstrate to newbies that Emacs has the same feature > that their IDEs have. Fair enough. But on the flip side, better that a newbie should learn, early, that there is much more to Emacs than first meets the eye. And learn, early on, how to discover for herself such non-default features. I disagree, in general (yes, abstractly, and such things should really be decided mostly case by case), with the idea of showing things initially just to be sure users notice them. That's not a strong reason. We sometimes hear it espoused also as a reason for turning on some shiny new behavior: so users will notice it. Not a great reason, on its own. We have NEWS for that (and Sacha's tangents newsletter and... ___ As for discoverability (a larger question) - 1. There's little substitute now for a newbie learning the help keys (`C-h`...) at the outset. 2. Menus can help. 3. Google etc. help (word-of-mouth in our era). 4. But Emacs could offer more aids to discoverability. Instead of turning things on by default so users can easily see they exist, we'd be better off adding more discovery help. (Emacs is, after all, the self-documenting editor.)