From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Drew Adams Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.bugs Subject: bug#16402: 24.3.50; Document nadvice.el stuff in Elisp manual before Emacs 24.4 Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2014 20:18:47 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <9aff94eb-d130-414e-a476-5f0c8252285e@default> References: <86r48glgbt.fsf@gmail.com> <52CF6B75.5040206@dancol.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1389327620 28755 80.91.229.3 (10 Jan 2014 04:20:20 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2014 04:20:20 +0000 (UTC) To: Daniel Colascione , 16402@debbugs.gnu.org, Andy Moreton Original-X-From: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Fri Jan 10 05:20:25 2014 Return-path: Envelope-to: geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1W1Ta4-0007rY-5s for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 05:20:24 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:55211 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1W1Ta3-0003oK-OO for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Thu, 09 Jan 2014 23:20:23 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:51032) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1W1TZr-0003kD-KN for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Thu, 09 Jan 2014 23:20:20 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1W1TZj-0000W8-1F for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Thu, 09 Jan 2014 23:20:11 -0500 Original-Received: from debbugs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.43]:58778) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1W1TZi-0000VH-Ty for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Thu, 09 Jan 2014 23:20:02 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-debbugs by debbugs.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1W1TZi-0006r8-Bt for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Thu, 09 Jan 2014 23:20:02 -0500 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Resent-From: Drew Adams Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2014 04:20:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 16402 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: Original-Received: via spool by 16402-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B16402.138932754426224 (code B ref 16402); Fri, 10 Jan 2014 04:20:02 +0000 Original-Received: (at 16402) by debbugs.gnu.org; 10 Jan 2014 04:19:04 +0000 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:44560 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1W1TYl-0006ot-Ls for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 09 Jan 2014 23:19:04 -0500 Original-Received: from aserp1040.oracle.com ([141.146.126.69]:51602) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1W1TYj-0006oT-TZ for 16402@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 09 Jan 2014 23:19:02 -0500 Original-Received: from ucsinet21.oracle.com (ucsinet21.oracle.com [156.151.31.93]) by aserp1040.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.1/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.1) with ESMTP id s0A4Inq1005794 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Fri, 10 Jan 2014 04:18:50 GMT Original-Received: from aserz7021.oracle.com (aserz7021.oracle.com [141.146.126.230]) by ucsinet21.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id s0A4IlqQ002688 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 10 Jan 2014 04:18:48 GMT Original-Received: from abhmp0002.oracle.com (abhmp0002.oracle.com [141.146.116.8]) by aserz7021.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id s0A4Ilti028267; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 04:18:47 GMT In-Reply-To: <52CF6B75.5040206@dancol.org> X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.8 (707110) [OL 12.0.6680.5000 (x86)] X-Source-IP: ucsinet21.oracle.com [156.151.31.93] X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 3.x X-Received-From: 140.186.70.43 X-BeenThere: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org List-Id: "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.bugs:83209 Archived-At: > >> As the author of nadvice.el, I would have thought that it was > >> incumbent upon you to provide adequate documentation. A rationale > >> to explain why the existing advice package needs changing would > >> also be helpful. > > > > In Stefan's defence this is him saying help me out. I am sure as > > the maintainer of emacs he has plenty in his plate that some > > lower-priority tasks may have to fall in others hands ;) >=20 > It'd be easier to document nadvice if there were a clear reason for > it to exist. Regular advice works fine and has for a long time. It's > very well documented has many useful features. It integrates with > help. It supports various interactive commands. I have no plans > to use nadvice myself any time soon and oppose deprecating regular > advice. 1. I suspect that there is some misunderstanding here. Let me try to clear some of it up, if so. I filed the bug report, because Stefan often suggests to people to use the new advice system provided by nadvice.el. He tells them that the "old", `defadvice' system is on the way out (will be deprecated at some point). I noticed that currently the only advice system documented in the Elisp manual is the "old" one, and there is no mention of it becoming deprecated, and there is no mention of any other (e.g. nadvice.el) advice system. The purpose of the bug was to get the new policy reflected in the Elisp manual. Glenn closed the bug, reminding me that this new feature is flagged in the NEWS file as something that needs to be documented before the Emacs 24.4 release. IOW, the bug report was not needed (so it is noise) - the feature is anyway slated to be documented. Does that help clarify things? The use of nadvice functionality does need to be documented in the Elisp manual for 24.4, but they already plan to do that. If someone wants to help by submitting a patch to the manual, they are welcome to do so. That, apparently, is Stefan's message here. 2. As far as I know (but someone will correct me if I'm wrong), Stefan has already decided to deprecate the use of defadvice, like it or not. I have filed other bugs for defadvice, and he has made it clear for at least some that they won't be fixed, saying: "I have no interest in improving advice.el." In sum, it seems clear that they do not intend to fix at least some defadvice problems, since defadvice is anyway on its way out. Some defadvice bugs I reported recently: * #14070 - a defadvice doc bug. * #14130 - another defadvice doc bug. * #14734 - inability now to update the doc of an advised function (the new doc is available only by way of a link from the original doc now). * #15666 - you can no longer advise a special form. (You could do that in the past, but that was a while ago - this regression is unrelated to the move to nadvice.)