From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: Drew Adams Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.bugs Subject: bug#30530: 26.0; Emacs manual: mention (1) user-reserved keys, (2) users can bind any keys Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2018 09:31:13 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <92c8fd97-8e96-4e2b-8706-f5ca97869912@default> References: <> <83lgfi4qw2.fsf@gnu.org>> <529ae5d2-b5e8-40d1-aaa6-87a76003b8bc@default> <83h8q62sgd.fsf@gnu.org>> <<87zi3y13jf.fsf@nicolasgoaziou.fr>> <<83d10nyf4y.fsf@gnu.org>> NNTP-Posting-Host: blaine.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: blaine.gmane.org 1519925419 28870 195.159.176.226 (1 Mar 2018 17:30:19 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@blaine.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2018 17:30:19 +0000 (UTC) Cc: 30530@debbugs.gnu.org To: Eli Zaretskii , Nicolas Goaziou Original-X-From: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Thu Mar 01 18:30:15 2018 Return-path: Envelope-to: geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by blaine.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1erS21-0006my-R2 for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; 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Thu, 1 Mar 2018 17:31:16 GMT Original-Received: from abhmp0015.oracle.com (abhmp0015.oracle.com [141.146.116.21]) by userv0122.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id w21HVFMP001564; Thu, 1 Mar 2018 17:31:15 GMT In-Reply-To: <<83d10nyf4y.fsf@gnu.org>> X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9.1 (1003210) [OL 16.0.4654.0 (x86)] X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=5900 definitions=8819 signatures=668682 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 suspectscore=0 malwarescore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 mlxscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1711220000 definitions=main-1803010217 X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 208.118.235.43 X-BeenThere: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org List-Id: "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "bug-gnu-emacs" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.bugs:143792 Archived-At: > > Drew pointed out that suggesting to bind user reserved keys was almost > > as if we were binding them. >=20 > I disagree with Drew. By that logic, no one can ever say anything > about binding these keys, and they must always remain unbound, which > of course would defeat the reason for reserving them. No. This is about a library - and in particular an extremely widely used library, perhaps _the most popular_ Emacs library - recommending that users globally bind a whole set of user-reserved keys to commands for use only by that library. And yes that is pretty much tantamount, in practice, to that library globally binding those keys by default. Your claim that if a library doesn't suggest that users sacrifice their reserved keys for that library then _no user will ever bind such keys_ is, well, preposterous. That doesn't follow at all. Talk about "by that logic..."! The Emacs doc makes clear that these keys are reserved for users. Users do not need a library to instruct them to co-opt the keys for its use. Without such "help" users will continue, just fine, to bind such keys for whatever uses they like - as they always have. For Org to say that for best use/experience Emacs recommends that you globally bind these N keys to Org commands works against their reservation for users, as a practical matter. Some (many?) users, especially newbies, may well blindly follow such a bogus "best use" recommendation. I'm surprised that you would endorse this. There is no need for it, and it is not helpful.