From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Drew Adams Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.bugs Subject: bug#45125: Subject: 28.0.50; defvar dynamics Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2020 11:55:16 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <8b0e71df-4f37-4df7-9e84-35d32221c433@default> References: <01017daf-0373-e7fe-9cd1-34e27d1795e8@easy-emacs.de> <87o8j49haq.fsf@gnus.org> <87blf35e92.fsf@gnus.org> <3bc0ccfa-099e-b93f-64fb-6610d4cd68e6@easy-emacs.de> <87czzix009.fsf@gnus.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="17836"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: 45125@debbugs.gnu.org To: Lars Ingebrigtsen , Andreas =?UTF-8?Q?R=C3=B6hler?= Original-X-From: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Wed Dec 09 21:12:29 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1kn5p7-0004XE-3f for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org; 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Wed, 09 Dec 2020 19:55:23 +0000 Original-Received: from pps.filterd (userp3030.oracle.com [127.0.0.1]) by userp3030.oracle.com (8.16.0.42/8.16.0.42) with SMTP id 0B9Jo2Km164965; Wed, 9 Dec 2020 19:55:22 GMT Original-Received: from userv0121.oracle.com (userv0121.oracle.com [156.151.31.72]) by userp3030.oracle.com with ESMTP id 358m514bd8-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Wed, 09 Dec 2020 19:55:22 +0000 Original-Received: from abhmp0017.oracle.com (abhmp0017.oracle.com [141.146.116.23]) by userv0121.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.13.8) with ESMTP id 0B9JtGEI008522; Wed, 9 Dec 2020 19:55:21 GMT In-Reply-To: <87czzix009.fsf@gnus.org> X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9.1 (1003210) [OL 16.0.5071.0 (x86)] X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=6000 definitions=9830 signatures=668683 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 mlxscore=0 spamscore=0 suspectscore=0 bulkscore=0 malwarescore=0 phishscore=0 adultscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2009150000 definitions=main-2012090138 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=6000 definitions=9830 signatures=668683 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 suspectscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 clxscore=1015 malwarescore=0 priorityscore=1501 adultscore=0 lowpriorityscore=0 phishscore=0 spamscore=0 impostorscore=0 mlxscore=0 bulkscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2009150000 definitions=main-2012090138 X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list X-BeenThere: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org List-Id: "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "bug-gnu-emacs" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.bugs:195586 Archived-At: > > Understand that thought as kind of convenience-feature. However, > > problems for testing and debugging arise from this inconsistency. >=20 > Eval-region and friends still work the same as before. >=20 > If you're doing an `C-x C-e' on a `defvar' form, it doesn't seem like > it should be surprising that something happens. What if you do `C-x C-e' on a `let' or a `progn' or a `when' or a that contains a `defvar'? For acting on a single `defvar' we already had (and still have) `C-M-x'. Now we've lost the ability to use `C-x C-e' on an arbitrary sexp and have its contained `defvar's be handled as they would be by `eval-region'. At the very least, I think this (big) difference should be prominently called out in the doc (not just doc strings) - letting users know that, in effect', `C-x C-e' (now) behaves differently from `eval-region'. Some differences in behavior can be handy. But quirks can also lead to confusion. The previous behavior has existed for decades, and I'm not aware of any complaints about it. The case of `defface' is different. There, the (longstanding) complaint has been that it is the outlier (IOW, a complaint _against_ an exception) when it comes to `C-M-x'. (And that odd behavior is all the worse because `C-M-x' on a `defface' echoes the face name, just as if it actually did update the face definition.) Really, these constructs deserved (still deserve?) a serious general reconsideration, to perhaps increase consistency and user-friendly behavior. Instead, it looks like we got a quick reflex to a request out of the blue - after long longstanding behavior. Don't get me wrong. I'm glad that the question was at least raised again and finally considered. I just don't think we're really there yet.