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* bug#30349: 27.0.50; Cuonfusing documentation about pipe processes
@ 2018-02-04 16:29 Philipp
  2018-02-04 17:46 ` Eli Zaretskii
  2018-02-06  0:53 ` Noam Postavsky
  0 siblings, 2 replies; 11+ messages in thread
From: Philipp @ 2018-02-04 16:29 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 30349


I've found a few confusing items about pipe processes in the
documentation:


C-h f make-pipe-process says:

":buffer BUFFER -- BUFFER is the buffer (or buffer-name) to associate
with the process.  Process output goes at the end of that buffer,
unless you specify an output stream or filter function to handle the
output."

=> How do you specify an output stream?


The manual says about pipe processes:

@item :stop @var{stopped}
If @var{stopped} is non-@code{nil}, start the process in the
stopped state.

=> What does "the stopped state" mean?  How can a pipe be "stopped"?


This is not a big issue, it probably just needs a bit of editorial work.



In GNU Emacs 27.0.50 (build 38, x86_64-apple-darwin17.4.0, NS appkit-1561.20 Version 10.13.3 (Build 17D47))
 of 2018-02-04 built on p
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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread

* bug#30349: 27.0.50; Cuonfusing documentation about pipe processes
  2018-02-04 16:29 bug#30349: 27.0.50; Cuonfusing documentation about pipe processes Philipp
@ 2018-02-04 17:46 ` Eli Zaretskii
  2018-02-06  0:53 ` Noam Postavsky
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 11+ messages in thread
From: Eli Zaretskii @ 2018-02-04 17:46 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Philipp; +Cc: 30349

> From: Philipp <p.stephani2@gmail.com>
> Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2018 17:29:30 +0100
> 
> The manual says about pipe processes:
> 
> @item :stop @var{stopped}
> If @var{stopped} is non-@code{nil}, start the process in the
> stopped state.
> 
> => What does "the stopped state" mean?  How can a pipe be "stopped"?

See stop-process and continue-process.





^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread

* bug#30349: 27.0.50; Cuonfusing documentation about pipe processes
  2018-02-04 16:29 bug#30349: 27.0.50; Cuonfusing documentation about pipe processes Philipp
  2018-02-04 17:46 ` Eli Zaretskii
@ 2018-02-06  0:53 ` Noam Postavsky
  2018-02-06  3:54   ` Eli Zaretskii
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 11+ messages in thread
From: Noam Postavsky @ 2018-02-06  0:53 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Philipp; +Cc: 30349

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 792 bytes --]

tags 30349 + patch
quit

Philipp <p.stephani2@gmail.com> writes:

> C-h f make-pipe-process says:
>
> ":buffer BUFFER -- BUFFER is the buffer (or buffer-name) to associate
> with the process.  Process output goes at the end of that buffer,
> unless you specify an output stream or filter function to handle the
> output."
>
> => How do you specify an output stream?

I don't think there is such a thing.  That phrase seems to have been
copied across all the make-*-process functions.

> The manual says about pipe processes:
>
> @item :stop @var{stopped}
> If @var{stopped} is non-@code{nil}, start the process in the
> stopped state.
>
> => What does "the stopped state" mean?  How can a pipe be "stopped"?

The docstring explains it fine, may as well copy that part to the manual
I guess.


[-- Warning: decoded text below may be mangled, UTF-8 assumed --]
[-- Attachment #2: patch --]
[-- Type: text/x-diff, Size: 4404 bytes --]

From 902ded87cb2e8079259c34a323afa84b11f84e8b Mon Sep 17 00:00:00 2001
From: Noam Postavsky <npostavs@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2018 19:36:27 -0500
Subject: [PATCH v1] Doc fixes for process functions (Bug#30349)

* doc/lispref/processes.texi (Asynchronous Processes): Explain what
the 'stopped' state means for a pipe process.
* src/process.c (Fmake_process, Fmake_pipe_process)
(Fmake_serial_process, Fmake_network_process): Remove meaningless
phrase "specify an output stream" from docstring.
---
 doc/lispref/processes.texi |  6 ++++--
 src/process.c              | 26 ++++++++++++--------------
 2 files changed, 16 insertions(+), 16 deletions(-)

diff --git a/doc/lispref/processes.texi b/doc/lispref/processes.texi
index 8a8425cb84..4706a9daa0 100644
--- a/doc/lispref/processes.texi
+++ b/doc/lispref/processes.texi
@@ -728,8 +728,10 @@ Asynchronous Processes
 @xref{Query Before Exit}.
 
 @item :stop @var{stopped}
-If @var{stopped} is non-@code{nil}, start the process in the
-stopped state.
+If @var{stopped} is non-@code{nil}, start the process in the stopped
+state.  In the stopped state, a pipe process does not accept incoming
+data, but you can send outgoing data.  The stopped state is cleared by
+@code{continue-process} and set by @code{stop-process}.
 
 @item :filter @var{filter}
 Initialize the process filter to @var{filter}.  If not specified, a
diff --git a/src/process.c b/src/process.c
index 8a438cfeb8..e688510a41 100644
--- a/src/process.c
+++ b/src/process.c
@@ -1617,10 +1617,9 @@ DEFUN ("make-process", Fmake_process, Smake_process, 0, MANY, 0,
 to make it unique.
 
 :buffer BUFFER -- BUFFER is the buffer (or buffer-name) to associate
-with the process.  Process output goes at end of that buffer, unless
-you specify an output stream or filter function to handle the output.
-BUFFER may be also nil, meaning that this process is not associated
-with any buffer.
+with the process.  The default filter function writes process output
+at the end of that buffer.  BUFFER may be also nil, meaning that this
+process is not associated with any buffer.
 
 :command COMMAND -- COMMAND is a list starting with the program file
 name, followed by strings to give to the program as arguments.
@@ -2309,9 +2308,9 @@ DEFUN ("make-pipe-process", Fmake_pipe_process, Smake_pipe_process,
 :name NAME -- NAME is the name of the process.  It is modified if necessary to make it unique.
 
 :buffer BUFFER -- BUFFER is the buffer (or buffer-name) to associate
-with the process.  Process output goes at the end of that buffer,
-unless you specify an output stream or filter function to handle the
-output.  If BUFFER is not given, the value of NAME is used.
+with the process.  The default filter function writes process output
+at the end of that buffer.  If BUFFER is not given, the value of NAME
+is used.
 
 :coding CODING -- If CODING is a symbol, it specifies the coding
 system used for both reading and writing for this process.  If CODING
@@ -3024,9 +3023,9 @@ DEFUN ("make-serial-process", Fmake_serial_process, Smake_serial_process,
 the value of PORT is used.
 
 :buffer BUFFER -- BUFFER is the buffer (or buffer-name) to associate
-with the process.  Process output goes at the end of that buffer,
-unless you specify an output stream or filter function to handle the
-output.  If BUFFER is not given, the value of NAME is used.
+with the process.  The default filter function writes process output
+at the end of that buffer.  If BUFFER is not given, the value of NAME
+is used.
 
 :coding CODING -- If CODING is a symbol, it specifies the coding
 system used for both reading and writing for this process.  If CODING
@@ -3687,10 +3686,9 @@ DEFUN ("make-network-process", Fmake_network_process, Smake_network_process,
 to make it unique.
 
 :buffer BUFFER -- BUFFER is the buffer (or buffer-name) to associate
-with the process.  Process output goes at end of that buffer, unless
-you specify an output stream or filter function to handle the output.
-BUFFER may be also nil, meaning that this process is not associated
-with any buffer.
+with the process.  The default filter function writes process output
+at the end of that buffer.  BUFFER may be also nil, meaning that this
+process is not associated with any buffer.
 
 :host HOST -- HOST is name of the host to connect to, or its IP
 address.  The symbol `local' specifies the local host.  If specified
-- 
2.11.0


^ permalink raw reply related	[flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread

* bug#30349: 27.0.50; Cuonfusing documentation about pipe processes
  2018-02-06  0:53 ` Noam Postavsky
@ 2018-02-06  3:54   ` Eli Zaretskii
  2018-02-06 12:10     ` Noam Postavsky
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 11+ messages in thread
From: Eli Zaretskii @ 2018-02-06  3:54 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Noam Postavsky; +Cc: p.stephani2, 30349

> From: Noam Postavsky <npostavs@users.sourceforge.net>
> Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2018 19:53:12 -0500
> Cc: 30349@debbugs.gnu.org
> 
> > ":buffer BUFFER -- BUFFER is the buffer (or buffer-name) to associate
> > with the process.  Process output goes at the end of that buffer,
> > unless you specify an output stream or filter function to handle the
> > output."
> >
> > => How do you specify an output stream?
> 
> I don't think there is such a thing.  That phrase seems to have been
> copied across all the make-*-process functions.

And is wrong in all of them?

Could it be that the phrase originally meant shell-style redirection?

>  @item :stop @var{stopped}
> -If @var{stopped} is non-@code{nil}, start the process in the
> -stopped state.
> +If @var{stopped} is non-@code{nil}, start the process in the stopped
> +state.  In the stopped state, a pipe process does not accept incoming
> +data, but you can send outgoing data.  The stopped state is cleared by
> +@code{continue-process} and set by @code{stop-process}.

In the last sentence, I'd swap the order of references to clearing and
setting the stopped state.  I'd also add a @pxref to where those two
functions are described.

>  :buffer BUFFER -- BUFFER is the buffer (or buffer-name) to associate
> -with the process.  Process output goes at end of that buffer, unless
> -you specify an output stream or filter function to handle the output.
> -BUFFER may be also nil, meaning that this process is not associated
> -with any buffer.
> +with the process.  The default filter function writes process output
> +at the end of that buffer.  BUFFER may be also nil, meaning that this
> +process is not associated with any buffer.

This goes too far in deleting stuff that is useful: the part of the
second sentence that follows "unless", which talks about specifying a
filter function, should be left alone.  Without it, "The default
filter function ..." surprises the reader, since it talks about the
default of something that wasn't mentioned before.

With those fixed, this is good for the release branch, thanks.





^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread

* bug#30349: 27.0.50; Cuonfusing documentation about pipe processes
  2018-02-06  3:54   ` Eli Zaretskii
@ 2018-02-06 12:10     ` Noam Postavsky
  2018-02-06 16:31       ` Basil L. Contovounesios
  2018-02-06 18:55       ` Eli Zaretskii
  0 siblings, 2 replies; 11+ messages in thread
From: Noam Postavsky @ 2018-02-06 12:10 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Eli Zaretskii; +Cc: p.stephani2, 30349

Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:

>> From: Noam Postavsky <npostavs@users.sourceforge.net>
>> Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2018 19:53:12 -0500
>> Cc: 30349@debbugs.gnu.org
>> 
>> > ":buffer BUFFER -- BUFFER is the buffer (or buffer-name) to associate
>> > with the process.  Process output goes at the end of that buffer,
>> > unless you specify an output stream or filter function to handle the
>> > output."
>> >
>> > => How do you specify an output stream?
>> 
>> I don't think there is such a thing.  That phrase seems to have been
>> copied across all the make-*-process functions.
>
> And is wrong in all of them?

I think so.

> Could it be that the phrase originally meant shell-style redirection?

Perhaps, but none of those functions support that, as far as I know.

>>  @item :stop @var{stopped}
>> +If @var{stopped} is non-@code{nil}, start the process in the stopped
>> +state.  In the stopped state, a pipe process does not accept incoming
>> +data, but you can send outgoing data.  The stopped state is cleared by
>> +@code{continue-process} and set by @code{stop-process}.
>
> In the last sentence, I'd swap the order of references to clearing and
> setting the stopped state.  I'd also add a @pxref to where those two
> functions are described.

Ok.

> This goes too far in deleting stuff that is useful: the part of the
> second sentence that follows "unless", which talks about specifying a
> filter function, should be left alone.  Without it, "The default
> filter function ..." surprises the reader, since it talks about the
> default of something that wasn't mentioned before.

Not entirely sure I follow, did you actually mean the part that
*precedes* "unless" should be left alone?  As in:

    :buffer BUFFER -- BUFFER is the buffer (or buffer-name) to associate
    with the process.  Process output goes at end of that buffer, unless
    you specify a filter function to handle the output.  [...]

Otherwise, mentioning both "the default filter function" and "unless you
specify a filter function" feels redundant to me:

    :buffer BUFFER -- BUFFER is the buffer (or buffer-name) to associate
    with the process.  The default filter function writes process output at
    the end of that buffer, unless you specify a filter function to handle
    the output.  [...]





^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread

* bug#30349: 27.0.50; Cuonfusing documentation about pipe processes
  2018-02-06 12:10     ` Noam Postavsky
@ 2018-02-06 16:31       ` Basil L. Contovounesios
  2018-02-06 16:44         ` Noam Postavsky
  2018-02-06 18:55       ` Eli Zaretskii
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 11+ messages in thread
From: Basil L. Contovounesios @ 2018-02-06 16:31 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Noam Postavsky; +Cc: p.stephani2, 30349

Noam Postavsky <npostavs@users.sourceforge.net> writes:

> Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:
>
>>> From: Noam Postavsky <npostavs@users.sourceforge.net>
>>> Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2018 19:53:12 -0500
>>> Cc: 30349@debbugs.gnu.org
>>> 
>>> > ":buffer BUFFER -- BUFFER is the buffer (or buffer-name) to associate
>>> > with the process.  Process output goes at the end of that buffer,
>>> > unless you specify an output stream or filter function to handle the
>>> > output."
>>> >
>>> > => How do you specify an output stream?
>>> 
>>> I don't think there is such a thing.  That phrase seems to have been
>>> copied across all the make-*-process functions.
>>
>> And is wrong in all of them?
>
> I think so.
>
>> Could it be that the phrase originally meant shell-style redirection?
>
> Perhaps, but none of those functions support that, as far as I know.

No relation to '(elisp) Output Streams'?

-- 
Basil





^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread

* bug#30349: 27.0.50; Cuonfusing documentation about pipe processes
  2018-02-06 16:31       ` Basil L. Contovounesios
@ 2018-02-06 16:44         ` Noam Postavsky
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 11+ messages in thread
From: Noam Postavsky @ 2018-02-06 16:44 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Basil L. Contovounesios; +Cc: Philipp Stephani, 30349

On Tue, Feb 6, 2018 at 11:31 AM, Basil L. Contovounesios
<contovob@tcd.ie> wrote:

>>>> > ":buffer BUFFER -- BUFFER is the buffer (or buffer-name) to associate
>>>> > with the process.  Process output goes at the end of that buffer,
>>>> > unless you specify an output stream or filter function to handle the
>>>> > output."
>>>> >
>>>> > => How do you specify an output stream?
>>>>
>>>> I don't think there is such a thing.  That phrase seems to have been
>>>> copied across all the make-*-process functions.
>>>
>>> And is wrong in all of them?
>>
>> I think so.
>>
>>> Could it be that the phrase originally meant shell-style redirection?
>>
>> Perhaps, but none of those functions support that, as far as I know.
>
> No relation to '(elisp) Output Streams'?

I don't see anything in the process code that would be able to take an
Elisp stream.





^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread

* bug#30349: 27.0.50; Cuonfusing documentation about pipe processes
  2018-02-06 12:10     ` Noam Postavsky
  2018-02-06 16:31       ` Basil L. Contovounesios
@ 2018-02-06 18:55       ` Eli Zaretskii
  2018-02-07  0:05         ` Noam Postavsky
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 11+ messages in thread
From: Eli Zaretskii @ 2018-02-06 18:55 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Noam Postavsky; +Cc: p.stephani2, 30349

> From: Noam Postavsky <npostavs@users.sourceforge.net>
> Cc: p.stephani2@gmail.com,  30349@debbugs.gnu.org
> Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2018 07:10:43 -0500
> 
> >> I don't think there is such a thing.  That phrase seems to have been
> >> copied across all the make-*-process functions.
> >
> > And is wrong in all of them?
> 
> I think so.
> 
> > Could it be that the phrase originally meant shell-style redirection?
> 
> Perhaps, but none of those functions support that, as far as I know.

Did you look at Git history of how that text was introduced?  Maybe
that will tell us something.  Or maybe the discussions/bug report
around the time this text was written/modified will give a hint.
(Sorry I'm not doing this research myself, but I'm terribly busy these
days, and won't have time for it for another couple of days.)

> > This goes too far in deleting stuff that is useful: the part of the
> > second sentence that follows "unless", which talks about specifying a
> > filter function, should be left alone.  Without it, "The default
> > filter function ..." surprises the reader, since it talks about the
> > default of something that wasn't mentioned before.
> 
> Not entirely sure I follow, did you actually mean the part that
> *precedes* "unless" should be left alone?  As in:
> 
>     :buffer BUFFER -- BUFFER is the buffer (or buffer-name) to associate
>     with the process.  Process output goes at end of that buffer, unless
>     you specify a filter function to handle the output.  [...]

Yes.  And then the sentence about the default filter function.

Thanks.





^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread

* bug#30349: 27.0.50; Cuonfusing documentation about pipe processes
  2018-02-06 18:55       ` Eli Zaretskii
@ 2018-02-07  0:05         ` Noam Postavsky
  2018-02-07  3:40           ` Eli Zaretskii
  2018-02-08  1:24           ` Noam Postavsky
  0 siblings, 2 replies; 11+ messages in thread
From: Noam Postavsky @ 2018-02-07  0:05 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Eli Zaretskii; +Cc: Philipp Stephani, 30349

On Tue, Feb 6, 2018 at 1:55 PM, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> wrote:

>> > Could it be that the phrase originally meant shell-style redirection?
>>
>> Perhaps, but none of those functions support that, as far as I know.
>
> Did you look at Git history of how that text was introduced?  Maybe
> that will tell us something.  Or maybe the discussions/bug report
> around the time this text was written/modified will give a hint.

Huh. I had assumed it was new in make-process, but actually the phrase
seems to have come from start-process where it was present since the
beginning [1: d0d6b7c].
I see it's also in start-process-shell-command, where it could refer
to shell redirection, so maybe it was copied from there?
Although, IMO, even in start-process-shell-command it doesn't really
make much sense: if you use shell redirection you haven't stopped the
output from going into BUFFER, there just happens not to be any
output.

[1: d0d6b7c]: 1992-03-14 20:40:04 +0000
  Initial revision
  https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/emacs.git/commit/?id=d0d6b7c506eb0f93e80db38d6c2affe0a2b49b4c

> (Sorry I'm not doing this research myself, but I'm terribly busy these
> days, and won't have time for it for another couple of days.)

No problem.

>>     :buffer BUFFER -- BUFFER is the buffer (or buffer-name) to associate
>>     with the process.  Process output goes at end of that buffer, unless
>>     you specify a filter function to handle the output.  [...]
>
> Yes.  And then the sentence about the default filter function.

Hmm, I know I have a personal tendency for terseness, but that really
seems redundant to me:

    :buffer BUFFER -- BUFFER is the buffer (or buffer-name) to associate
    with the process.  Process output goes at end of that buffer, unless
    you specify a filter function to handle the output.  The default
    filter function writes process output at the end of that buffer. [...]





^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread

* bug#30349: 27.0.50; Cuonfusing documentation about pipe processes
  2018-02-07  0:05         ` Noam Postavsky
@ 2018-02-07  3:40           ` Eli Zaretskii
  2018-02-08  1:24           ` Noam Postavsky
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 11+ messages in thread
From: Eli Zaretskii @ 2018-02-07  3:40 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Noam Postavsky; +Cc: p.stephani2, 30349

> From: Noam Postavsky <npostavs@users.sourceforge.net>
> Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2018 19:05:54 -0500
> Cc: Philipp Stephani <p.stephani2@gmail.com>, 30349@debbugs.gnu.org
> 
> Hmm, I know I have a personal tendency for terseness, but that really
> seems redundant to me:
> 
>     :buffer BUFFER -- BUFFER is the buffer (or buffer-name) to associate
>     with the process.  Process output goes at end of that buffer, unless
>     you specify a filter function to handle the output.  The default
>     filter function writes process output at the end of that buffer. [...]

You are right, it is redundant.





^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread

* bug#30349: 27.0.50; Cuonfusing documentation about pipe processes
  2018-02-07  0:05         ` Noam Postavsky
  2018-02-07  3:40           ` Eli Zaretskii
@ 2018-02-08  1:24           ` Noam Postavsky
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 11+ messages in thread
From: Noam Postavsky @ 2018-02-08  1:24 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Eli Zaretskii; +Cc: Philipp Stephani, 30349

tags 30349 fixed
close 30349 26.1
quit

Noam Postavsky <npostavs@users.sourceforge.net> writes:

> I see it's also in start-process-shell-command, where it could refer
> to shell redirection, so maybe it was copied from there?
> Although, IMO, even in start-process-shell-command it doesn't really
> make much sense: if you use shell redirection you haven't stopped the
> output from going into BUFFER, there just happens not to be any
> output.

I've removed the phrase from several other make/start-foo functions, I
left it in start-process-shell-command, since it could make sense there.

[1: 04c5bd5b1f]: 2018-02-07 20:17:50 -0500
  Doc fixes for process functions (Bug#30349)
  https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/emacs.git/commit/?id=04c5bd5b1f1dc07994d70caa640a07da6b5a54b5





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2018-02-04 16:29 bug#30349: 27.0.50; Cuonfusing documentation about pipe processes Philipp
2018-02-04 17:46 ` Eli Zaretskii
2018-02-06  0:53 ` Noam Postavsky
2018-02-06  3:54   ` Eli Zaretskii
2018-02-06 12:10     ` Noam Postavsky
2018-02-06 16:31       ` Basil L. Contovounesios
2018-02-06 16:44         ` Noam Postavsky
2018-02-06 18:55       ` Eli Zaretskii
2018-02-07  0:05         ` Noam Postavsky
2018-02-07  3:40           ` Eli Zaretskii
2018-02-08  1:24           ` Noam Postavsky

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