From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Juri Linkov Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.bugs Subject: bug#9875: 24.0.90; Confusing description of the "window tree" in ELisp manual Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2011 11:04:35 +0300 Organization: JURTA Message-ID: <87y5w55zfw.fsf@mail.jurta.org> References: <4EA817C9.9030000@gmx.at> <83y5w7bn2r.fsf@gnu.org> <4EA929E6.9080001@gmx.at> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Trace: dough.gmane.org 1319790081 25230 80.91.229.12 (28 Oct 2011 08:21:21 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2011 08:21:21 +0000 (UTC) Cc: 9875@debbugs.gnu.org To: Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Fri Oct 28 10:21:16 2011 Return-path: Envelope-to: geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([140.186.70.17]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RJhgg-0002Qu-9j for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Fri, 28 Oct 2011 10:21:14 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:41440 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RJhgf-0004m9-L8 for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Fri, 28 Oct 2011 04:21:13 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:48753) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RJhgd-0004lc-0T for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 28 Oct 2011 04:21:11 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RJhgb-0005Zh-T3 for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 28 Oct 2011 04:21:10 -0400 Original-Received: from debbugs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.43]:48317) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RJhgb-0005Zb-Pj for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 28 Oct 2011 04:21:09 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-debbugs by debbugs.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RJhiQ-0000ws-JL for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 28 Oct 2011 04:23:02 -0400 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Resent-From: Juri Linkov Original-Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2011 08:23:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 9875 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: Original-Received: via spool by 9875-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B9875.13197901583600 (code B ref 9875); Fri, 28 Oct 2011 08:23:02 +0000 Original-Received: (at 9875) by debbugs.gnu.org; 28 Oct 2011 08:22:38 +0000 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RJhi0-0000vv-Cl for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 28 Oct 2011 04:22:37 -0400 Original-Received: from smarty.dreamhost.com ([208.113.175.8]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RJhhx-0000vm-Nk for 9875@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 28 Oct 2011 04:22:34 -0400 Original-Received: from ps18281.dreamhostps.com (ps18281.dreamhost.com [69.163.218.105]) by smarty.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B60636E80A3; Fri, 28 Oct 2011 01:20:39 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from localhost (ps18281.dreamhostps.com [69.163.218.105]) by ps18281.dreamhostps.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 73543451C00D; Fri, 28 Oct 2011 01:20:38 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Thu, 27 Oct 2011 07:00:45 -0400") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.90 (x86_64-pc-linux-gnu) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list Resent-Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2011 04:23:02 -0400 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-Received-From: 140.186.70.43 X-BeenThere: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org List-Id: "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.bugs:53239 Archived-At: > It is unnatural to talk about "size" or "side" of a window that > doesn't really exist on the screen! FWIW, I have no problem imagining a window that doesn't really exist on the screen. I imagine it as an "abstract window" with invisible outlines that group visible windows. So I have no problem understanding "internal windows" when reading the documentation. It seems the source of your complaints is the duality of window representation: data and view. When manipulating the window tree (e.g. when saving/restoring the window tree) it makes sense to think in terms of data - window tree with nodes. But when manipulating windows of the screen (e.g. when splitting windows), it makes sense to think in terms of visual representation where "internal windows" are distinct objects (albeit invisible). So thinking about "internal windows" requires imagination skills. But diagrams in the Info manual help greatly. The only problem with these diagrams is that ASCII art doesn't distinguish between internal and live windows: ______________________________________ | ______ ____________________________ | || || __________________________ || || ||| ___________ ___________ ||| || |||| || |||| || |||| || |||| || ||||_____W6____||_____W7____|||| || |||____________W4____________||| || || __________________________ || || ||| ||| || |||____________W5____________||| ||__W2__||_____________W3_____________ | |__________________W1__________________| It would help to draw live and internal windows with different lines, e.g. ______________________________________ |******** ____________________________ | |* *| __________________________ || |* *||**************************||| |* *||* ** *||| |* *||* ** *||| |* *||******W6***********W7*****||| |* *||____________W4____________||| |* *|****************************|| |* *|* *|| |* *|*************W5*************|| |***W2***|_____________W3_____________ | |__________________W1__________________| but this is ugly and I can't find a better way to draw them.