bug#57970: 29.0.50; Create new defgroup for pixel-scroll.el

bug#57970: 29.0.50; Create new defgroup for pixel-scroll.el

[Stefan Kangas]

Severity: wishlist

The options from pixel-scroll.el are in the `mouse' and `scrolling'
groups now.  Especially the former is very crowded as it is, so I think
we should add a separate defgroup for pixel-scroll.el.

bug#57970: 29.0.50; Create new defgroup for pixel-scroll.el

[Lars Ingebrigtsen]

Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@gmail.com> writes:

> The options from pixel-scroll.el are in the `mouse' and `scrolling'
> groups now.  Especially the former is very crowded as it is, so I think
> we should add a separate defgroup for pixel-scroll.el.

Makes sense to me.

bug#57970: 29.0.50; Create new defgroup for pixel-scroll.el

[Po Lu via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors]

Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@gnus.org> writes:

> Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> The options from pixel-scroll.el are in the `mouse' and `scrolling'
>> groups now.  Especially the former is very crowded as it is, so I think
>> we should add a separate defgroup for pixel-scroll.el.
>
> Makes sense to me.

BTW, doesn't this mean we should now put pixel-scroll-precision-mode in
the manual somewhere?  Because the idea was previously that people would
find pixel-scroll-precision-mode by looking at the mouse customize
group.

bug#57970: 29.0.50; Create new defgroup for pixel-scroll.el

[Lars Ingebrigtsen]

Po Lu <luangruo@yahoo.com> writes:

> BTW, doesn't this mean we should now put pixel-scroll-precision-mode in
> the manual somewhere?

Yes, I think so.

> Because the idea was previously that people would find
> pixel-scroll-precision-mode by looking at the mouse customize group.

The new group will be a sub-group under the mouse group, though, so
people can still find it that way, I think.

bug#57970: 29.0.50; Create new defgroup for pixel-scroll.el

[Stefan Kangas]

Version: 29.1

Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@gnus.org> writes:

> Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> The options from pixel-scroll.el are in the `mouse' and `scrolling'
>> groups now.  Especially the former is very crowded as it is, so I think
>> we should add a separate defgroup for pixel-scroll.el.
>
> Makes sense to me.

Now done on master (commit b6c725ba98a).

bug#57970: 29.0.50; Create new defgroup for pixel-scroll.el

[Stefan Kangas]

Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@gnus.org> writes:

> Po Lu <luangruo@yahoo.com> writes:
>
>> BTW, doesn't this mean we should now put pixel-scroll-precision-mode in
>> the manual somewhere?
>
> Yes, I think so.

This bug was closed as fixed, but feel free to propose a patch for this
related but separate issue.

I'm still not sure what is the relationship with pixel-scroll-mode.  Eli
does, I think.  So it might be best to send any suggested changes to the
bug tracker.

Thanks in advance.

bug#57970: 29.0.50; Create new defgroup for pixel-scroll.el

[Po Lu via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors]

Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@gmail.com> writes:

> I'm still not sure what is the relationship with pixel-scroll-mode.  Eli
> does, I think.  So it might be best to send any suggested changes to the
> bug tracker.

For what it's worth, the only advantage the old pixel-scroll-mode has
over p-s-p-m is that it functions with regular wheel mice by default.

pixel-scroll-precision-mode is also capable of supporting wheel mice,
but detecting them and enabling the requisite options is tricky and
subject to numerous edge cases, so those options remain off by default.

bug#57970: 29.0.50; Create new defgroup for pixel-scroll.el

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Cc: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@gnus.org>, 57970@debbugs.gnu.org
> Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2023 16:37:10 +0800
> From:  Po Lu via "Bug reports for GNU Emacs,
>  the Swiss army knife of text editors" <bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org>
> 
> Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@gmail.com> writes:
> 
> > I'm still not sure what is the relationship with pixel-scroll-mode.  Eli
> > does, I think.  So it might be best to send any suggested changes to the
> > bug tracker.
> 
> For what it's worth, the only advantage the old pixel-scroll-mode has
> over p-s-p-m is that it functions with regular wheel mice by default.
> 
> pixel-scroll-precision-mode is also capable of supporting wheel mice,
> but detecting them and enabling the requisite options is tricky and
> subject to numerous edge cases, so those options remain off by default.

So maybe we should document that one is better for wheels, the other
for touchpads?  And maybe even (gasp!) rename
pixel-scroll-precision-mode to something like touchpad-scroll-mode?

bug#57970: 29.0.50; Create new defgroup for pixel-scroll.el

[Po Lu via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors]

Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:

>> Cc: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@gnus.org>, 57970@debbugs.gnu.org
>> Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2023 16:37:10 +0800
>> From:  Po Lu via "Bug reports for GNU Emacs,
>>  the Swiss army knife of text editors" <bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org>
>> 
>> Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@gmail.com> writes:
>> 
>> > I'm still not sure what is the relationship with pixel-scroll-mode.  Eli
>> > does, I think.  So it might be best to send any suggested changes to the
>> > bug tracker.
>> 
>> For what it's worth, the only advantage the old pixel-scroll-mode has
>> over p-s-p-m is that it functions with regular wheel mice by default.
>> 
>> pixel-scroll-precision-mode is also capable of supporting wheel mice,
>> but detecting them and enabling the requisite options is tricky and
>> subject to numerous edge cases, so those options remain off by default.
>
> So maybe we should document that one is better for wheels, the other
> for touchpads?  And maybe even (gasp!) rename
> pixel-scroll-precision-mode to something like touchpad-scroll-mode?

pixel-scroll-mode isn't better for wheel mice as long as you actually
tell p-s-p-m that you use one, so that assessment isn't really correct.

pixel-scroll-mode's principal failings are that it bails out when a
wheel event arrives while scrolling is taking place, it always scrolls
by a set number of lines, and it is slow.  p-s-p-m experiences none of
these problems.

bug#57970: 29.0.50; Create new defgroup for pixel-scroll.el

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Po Lu <luangruo@yahoo.com>
> Cc: stefankangas@gmail.com,  larsi@gnus.org,  57970@debbugs.gnu.org
> Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2023 20:45:55 +0800
> 
> Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:
> 
> > So maybe we should document that one is better for wheels, the other
> > for touchpads?  And maybe even (gasp!) rename
> > pixel-scroll-precision-mode to something like touchpad-scroll-mode?
> 
> pixel-scroll-mode isn't better for wheel mice as long as you actually
> tell p-s-p-m that you use one, so that assessment isn't really correct.
> 
> pixel-scroll-mode's principal failings are that it bails out when a
> wheel event arrives while scrolling is taking place, it always scrolls
> by a set number of lines, and it is slow.  p-s-p-m experiences none of
> these problems.

It sounds like your comments actually agree with my suggestions ;-)

To clarify, I didn't mean that pixel-scroll-precision-mode _cannot_ be
used with wheels, I just said pixel-scroll-mode is _better_ there
(because it requires no tricky configuration); conversely, for
touchpads, pixel-scroll-precision-mode produces a much better UX OOTB.

This particular discussion is about two modes that have very similar
names.  I think explaining the strengths and weaknesses (even if they
are minor and can be overcome, given enough efforts) goes at least
some way towards resolving user confusion about these two, and
changing the name, even if not 110% accurate, is even better.

bug#57970: 29.0.50; Create new defgroup for pixel-scroll.el

[Po Lu via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors]

Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:

> It sounds like your comments actually agree with my suggestions ;-)
>
> To clarify, I didn't mean that pixel-scroll-precision-mode _cannot_ be
> used with wheels, I just said pixel-scroll-mode is _better_ there
> (because it requires no tricky configuration); conversely, for
> touchpads, pixel-scroll-precision-mode produces a much better UX OOTB.

That is correct, but not from an objective standpoint, only from the POV
of what is better "out of the box".  p-s-p-m is worse off OOTB, because
it takes no effect at all without some configuration.

> This particular discussion is about two modes that have very similar
> names.  I think explaining the strengths and weaknesses (even if they
> are minor and can be overcome, given enough efforts) goes at least
> some way towards resolving user confusion about these two, and
> changing the name, even if not 110% accurate, is even better.

Users customarily search for terms in the vein of "pixel scroll", which
that must still be taken into account: whatever name we select for the
mode should incorporate the word "pixel".

One more data point: within the stream of feature requests that
constitued the impetus for my decision to implement this feature, not a
single request mentioned the word "touchpad", whereas "pixel" and
"precise" abounded.  At least in my recollection.

bug#57970: 29.0.50; Create new defgroup for pixel-scroll.el

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Po Lu <luangruo@yahoo.com>
> Cc: stefankangas@gmail.com,  larsi@gnus.org,  57970@debbugs.gnu.org
> Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2023 22:46:03 +0800
> 
> Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:
> 
> > This particular discussion is about two modes that have very similar
> > names.  I think explaining the strengths and weaknesses (even if they
> > are minor and can be overcome, given enough efforts) goes at least
> > some way towards resolving user confusion about these two, and
> > changing the name, even if not 110% accurate, is even better.
> 
> Users customarily search for terms in the vein of "pixel scroll", which
> that must still be taken into account: whatever name we select for the
> mode should incorporate the word "pixel".
> 
> One more data point: within the stream of feature requests that
> constitued the impetus for my decision to implement this feature, not a
> single request mentioned the word "touchpad", whereas "pixel" and
> "precise" abounded.  At least in my recollection.

We could use touchpad-pixel-scroll, for example.