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* bug#56117: 29.0.50; pgtk does not distinguish between <kp-separator> and "."/","
@ 2022-06-20 23:02 Thomas Schneider
  2022-06-21  2:00 ` Po Lu via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 15+ messages in thread
From: Thomas Schneider @ 2022-06-20 23:02 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 56117


Dear maintainers,

With “classic” X11 support in Emacs and GTK (probably the others, too),
pressing the keypad separator ("," on, e.g., a german keyboard layout,
"." on most others), gave emacs the key <kp-separator>.  With pgtk, this
is no longer the case.

This is a feature regression, because it no longer allows, for example,
remapping <kp-separator> to "." for `calc-digit-map`, so I can’t enter
decimal numbers using only the keypad.  As a workaround, I currently
have (define-key calc-digit-map (kbd ",") "."), but if I wanted to use
the vector feature of calc, I’d no longer have the comma.

Steps to reproduce:
> fictive-window-manager-control set-keyboard-map de
> # maybe some locale stuff, who knows
> ./configure --with-pgtk && make
> src/emacs -Q
> C-h k <kp-separator>

Expected output:
> , (translated from <kp-separator>) runs the command […]

Actual output:
> , runs the command […]

I traced this a bit.  In pgtkterm.c:key_press_event(),
pgtkim.c:pgtk_im_filter_keypress() is called, which essentially defers
to gtk_im_context_filter_keypress() from GTK.  From its
documentation[0]:

> Allow an input method to internally handle key press and release
> events.  If this function returns `TRUE`, then no further processing
> should be done for this key event.

Well, okay.  Unfortunately, I barely know enough GTK to get the gist of
what is happening here, by far not enough to fix this issue.

[0]: https://docs.gtk.org/gtk3/method.IMContext.filter_keypress.html


In GNU Emacs 29.0.50 (build 1, x86_64-pc-linux-gnu, GTK+ Version 3.24.34, cairo version 1.16.0)
 of 2022-06-11 built on localhost
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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 15+ messages in thread

* bug#56117: 29.0.50; pgtk does not distinguish between <kp-separator> and "."/","
  2022-06-20 23:02 bug#56117: 29.0.50; pgtk does not distinguish between <kp-separator> and "."/"," Thomas Schneider
@ 2022-06-21  2:00 ` Po Lu via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors
  2022-06-22 20:44   ` Stefan Kangas
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 15+ messages in thread
From: Po Lu via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors @ 2022-06-21  2:00 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Thomas Schneider; +Cc: 56117

Thomas Schneider <qsx@chaotikum.eu> writes:

> Dear maintainers,
>
> With “classic” X11 support in Emacs and GTK (probably the others, too),
> pressing the keypad separator ("," on, e.g., a german keyboard layout,
> "." on most others), gave emacs the key <kp-separator>.  With pgtk, this
> is no longer the case.

This is a known problem with several GTK input methods.  There is
nothing we can do.  You can disable using the GTK input method system by
running (pgtk-use-im-context nil), but quite obviously input methods and
the compose key will no longer work.

If you are using X Windows, this, along with many other problems, is why
you should not be using the PGTK port.  Contrary to popular belief, the
"classic" X support is not slower than the PGTK port (in fact, it is
often faster), and has much better support for the X window system,
including features that are simply absent on PGTK, such as support for
drag-and-drop.





^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 15+ messages in thread

* bug#56117: 29.0.50; pgtk does not distinguish between <kp-separator> and "."/","
  2022-06-21  2:00 ` Po Lu via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors
@ 2022-06-22 20:44   ` Stefan Kangas
  2022-06-23  0:44     ` Po Lu via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 15+ messages in thread
From: Stefan Kangas @ 2022-06-22 20:44 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Po Lu; +Cc: 56117, Thomas Schneider

Po Lu <luangruo@yahoo.com> writes:

> This is a known problem with several GTK input methods.  There is
> nothing we can do.

Is this bug a wontfix, then?





^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 15+ messages in thread

* bug#56117: 29.0.50; pgtk does not distinguish between <kp-separator> and "."/","
  2022-06-22 20:44   ` Stefan Kangas
@ 2022-06-23  0:44     ` Po Lu via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors
  2022-06-23  7:51       ` Lars Ingebrigtsen
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 15+ messages in thread
From: Po Lu via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors @ 2022-06-23  0:44 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Stefan Kangas; +Cc: 56117, Thomas Schneider

Stefan Kangas <stefan@marxist.se> writes:

> Is this bug a wontfix, then?

Not exactly, but it's a duplicate of bug#55660 and bug#53200, and
countless others.





^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 15+ messages in thread

* bug#56117: 29.0.50; pgtk does not distinguish between <kp-separator> and "."/","
  2022-06-23  0:44     ` Po Lu via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors
@ 2022-06-23  7:51       ` Lars Ingebrigtsen
  2022-06-23  8:16         ` Po Lu via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 15+ messages in thread
From: Lars Ingebrigtsen @ 2022-06-23  7:51 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 56117; +Cc: luangruo, stefan, qsx

Po Lu via "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text
editors" <bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> writes:

>> Is this bug a wontfix, then?
>
> Not exactly, but it's a duplicate of bug#55660 and bug#53200, and
> countless others.

And as both Eli and I have said, we think those changes you've made to
pgtk here should be reverted so that these keys work as before.  Even
though it's "wrong".  Maintaining a user-facing program like Emacs is
70% dealing with bugs and misfeatures in other systems we're interfacing
with.

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no





^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 15+ messages in thread

* bug#56117: 29.0.50; pgtk does not distinguish between <kp-separator> and "."/","
  2022-06-23  7:51       ` Lars Ingebrigtsen
@ 2022-06-23  8:16         ` Po Lu via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors
  2022-06-23  8:28           ` Eli Zaretskii
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 15+ messages in thread
From: Po Lu via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors @ 2022-06-23  8:16 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Lars Ingebrigtsen; +Cc: 56117, stefan, qsx

Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@gnus.org> writes:

> And as both Eli and I have said, we think those changes you've made to
> pgtk here should be reverted so that these keys work as before.

This isn't the super-key related bug, and in fact they shouldn't have
been merged.  No amount of changes on our side can work around input
methods swallowing the shift modifier in "C-S-u" and the "kp-" in
"kp-separator".

> Even though it's "wrong".  Maintaining a user-facing program like
> Emacs is 70% dealing with bugs and misfeatures in other systems we're
> interfacing with.

I'm trying to figure out how all of that fits together in Wayland to
hopefully fix it in GTK upstream.  Hard-coding real modifier values is
very fundamentally wrong under both X and GTK, and leads to extremely
hard-to-diagnose problems down-the-road.





^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 15+ messages in thread

* bug#56117: 29.0.50; pgtk does not distinguish between <kp-separator> and "."/","
  2022-06-23  8:16         ` Po Lu via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors
@ 2022-06-23  8:28           ` Eli Zaretskii
  2022-06-23  8:40             ` Po Lu via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 15+ messages in thread
From: Eli Zaretskii @ 2022-06-23  8:28 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Po Lu; +Cc: larsi, stefan, 56117, qsx

> Cc: 56117@debbugs.gnu.org, stefan@marxist.se, qsx@chaotikum.eu
> Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2022 16:16:41 +0800
> From:  Po Lu via "Bug reports for GNU Emacs,
>  the Swiss army knife of text editors" <bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org>
> 
> Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@gnus.org> writes:
> 
> > And as both Eli and I have said, we think those changes you've made to
> > pgtk here should be reverted so that these keys work as before.
> 
> This isn't the super-key related bug, and in fact they shouldn't have
> been merged.  No amount of changes on our side can work around input
> methods swallowing the shift modifier in "C-S-u" and the "kp-" in
> "kp-separator".

Maybe we are talking about an issue that is not understood well enough
by some participants (e.g., myself).  Can you please describe in more
detail what causes this particular issue?

> > Even though it's "wrong".  Maintaining a user-facing program like
> > Emacs is 70% dealing with bugs and misfeatures in other systems we're
> > interfacing with.
> 
> I'm trying to figure out how all of that fits together in Wayland to
> hopefully fix it in GTK upstream.  Hard-coding real modifier values is
> very fundamentally wrong under both X and GTK, and leads to extremely
> hard-to-diagnose problems down-the-road.

Instead of hard-coding them, we could have them in some Lisp data
structure, where both changing them and eliminating them altogether
will be much easier.  Just an idea.





^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 15+ messages in thread

* bug#56117: 29.0.50; pgtk does not distinguish between <kp-separator> and "."/","
  2022-06-23  8:28           ` Eli Zaretskii
@ 2022-06-23  8:40             ` Po Lu via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors
  2022-06-23  9:49               ` Eli Zaretskii
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 15+ messages in thread
From: Po Lu via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors @ 2022-06-23  8:40 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Eli Zaretskii; +Cc: larsi, stefan, 56117, qsx

Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:

> Maybe we are talking about an issue that is not understood well enough
> by some participants (e.g., myself).  Can you please describe in more
> detail what causes this particular issue?

Basically, GTK input methods (which are maintained outside GTK) tend to
"swallow" the difference between keypresses like "C-S-u" and "C-u",
along with the difference between "kp-separator" and the separator
itself.

The reason is that doing so is slightly more convenient for the input
method developers, and most GTK programs, unlike Emacs, have no need to
tell those keypresses apart.

So in practice, Emacs users either have the choice of disabling the use
of system input methods, or putting up with those issues.

They are already documented in PROBLEMS, but somehow we still get a
continuous stream of people reporting them as bugs in Emacs.





^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 15+ messages in thread

* bug#56117: 29.0.50; pgtk does not distinguish between <kp-separator> and "."/","
  2022-06-23  8:40             ` Po Lu via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors
@ 2022-06-23  9:49               ` Eli Zaretskii
  2022-06-23 10:02                 ` Po Lu via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 15+ messages in thread
From: Eli Zaretskii @ 2022-06-23  9:49 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Po Lu; +Cc: larsi, stefan, 56117, qsx

> From: Po Lu <luangruo@yahoo.com>
> Cc: larsi@gnus.org,  56117@debbugs.gnu.org,  stefan@marxist.se,
>   qsx@chaotikum.eu
> Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2022 16:40:10 +0800
> 
> Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:
> 
> > Maybe we are talking about an issue that is not understood well enough
> > by some participants (e.g., myself).  Can you please describe in more
> > detail what causes this particular issue?
> 
> Basically, GTK input methods (which are maintained outside GTK) tend to
> "swallow" the difference between keypresses like "C-S-u" and "C-u",
> along with the difference between "kp-separator" and the separator
> itself.
> 
> The reason is that doing so is slightly more convenient for the input
> method developers, and most GTK programs, unlike Emacs, have no need to
> tell those keypresses apart.

And there's absolutely no way for Emacs to get at the original keys?
Or for users to configure their systems so as to work around this
"swallowing"?  I have hard time believing that no one has discovered
any workarounds for this misfeature.  Emacs may be rare in its needs
of accessing keys, but it cannot be the only application that does
that.  The NumLock key is there for a reason, and applications do use
it.

> So in practice, Emacs users either have the choice of disabling the use
> of system input methods, or putting up with those issues.

Can those system input methods be easily toggled, which would allow to
disable them temporarily, just for the period of time the kp-* keys
are needed?

> They are already documented in PROBLEMS, but somehow we still get a
> continuous stream of people reporting them as bugs in Emacs.

Because it's an annoying problem, I'm guessing, and the solution has
downsides that users perhaps consider annoying as well.  PROBLEMS is
only a satisfactory solution when a problem is rare or the solution
doesn't rob one of too much of useful functionality.





^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 15+ messages in thread

* bug#56117: 29.0.50; pgtk does not distinguish between <kp-separator> and "."/","
  2022-06-23  9:49               ` Eli Zaretskii
@ 2022-06-23 10:02                 ` Po Lu via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors
  2022-06-23 10:19                   ` Eli Zaretskii
  2022-06-24  5:58                   ` Kévin Le Gouguec
  0 siblings, 2 replies; 15+ messages in thread
From: Po Lu via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors @ 2022-06-23 10:02 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Eli Zaretskii; +Cc: larsi, stefan, 56117, qsx

Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:

> And there's absolutely no way for Emacs to get at the original keys?

It can by turning the input method off, but as a result any features
provided by them will no longer work.

Most users prefer working input methods to those few rare keys, so it is
on by default.

> Or for users to configure their systems so as to work around this
> "swallowing"?  I have hard time believing that no one has discovered
> any workarounds for this misfeature.

I feel the same way, but didn't find anything.

> Can those system input methods be easily toggled, which would allow to
> disable them temporarily, just for the period of time the kp-* keys
> are needed?

No, we don't have such a feature yet.  But it would be possible to
implement it.





^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 15+ messages in thread

* bug#56117: 29.0.50; pgtk does not distinguish between <kp-separator> and "."/","
  2022-06-23 10:02                 ` Po Lu via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors
@ 2022-06-23 10:19                   ` Eli Zaretskii
  2022-06-23 11:37                     ` Po Lu via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors
  2022-06-24  5:58                   ` Kévin Le Gouguec
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 15+ messages in thread
From: Eli Zaretskii @ 2022-06-23 10:19 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Po Lu; +Cc: larsi, stefan, 56117, qsx

> From: Po Lu <luangruo@yahoo.com>
> Cc: larsi@gnus.org,  56117@debbugs.gnu.org,  stefan@marxist.se,
>   qsx@chaotikum.eu
> Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2022 18:02:35 +0800
> 
> > Can those system input methods be easily toggled, which would allow to
> > disable them temporarily, just for the period of time the kp-* keys
> > are needed?
> 
> No, we don't have such a feature yet.  But it would be possible to
> implement it.

What I meant was a simple enough key sequence to turn the input method
off and on.  If we can do that from Emacs, maybe we should provide
such a feature, it could alleviate the pain in at least some cases.





^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 15+ messages in thread

* bug#56117: 29.0.50; pgtk does not distinguish between <kp-separator> and "."/","
  2022-06-23 10:19                   ` Eli Zaretskii
@ 2022-06-23 11:37                     ` Po Lu via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors
  2022-06-23 13:00                       ` Eli Zaretskii
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 15+ messages in thread
From: Po Lu via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors @ 2022-06-23 11:37 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Eli Zaretskii; +Cc: larsi, stefan, 56117, qsx

Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:

> What I meant was a simple enough key sequence to turn the input method
> off and on.  If we can do that from Emacs, maybe we should provide
> such a feature, it could alleviate the pain in at least some cases.

Which key sequence would you suggest binding to such a command?





^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 15+ messages in thread

* bug#56117: 29.0.50; pgtk does not distinguish between <kp-separator> and "."/","
  2022-06-23 11:37                     ` Po Lu via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors
@ 2022-06-23 13:00                       ` Eli Zaretskii
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 15+ messages in thread
From: Eli Zaretskii @ 2022-06-23 13:00 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Po Lu; +Cc: larsi, stefan, 56117, qsx

> From: Po Lu <luangruo@yahoo.com>
> Cc: larsi@gnus.org,  56117@debbugs.gnu.org,  stefan@marxist.se,
>   qsx@chaotikum.eu
> Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2022 19:37:15 +0800
> 
> Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:
> 
> > What I meant was a simple enough key sequence to turn the input method
> > off and on.  If we can do that from Emacs, maybe we should provide
> > such a feature, it could alleviate the pain in at least some cases.
> 
> Which key sequence would you suggest binding to such a command?

I don't know.  Is "C-x C-\" available?





^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 15+ messages in thread

* bug#56117: 29.0.50; pgtk does not distinguish between <kp-separator> and "."/","
  2022-06-23 10:02                 ` Po Lu via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors
  2022-06-23 10:19                   ` Eli Zaretskii
@ 2022-06-24  5:58                   ` Kévin Le Gouguec
  2022-06-24 16:43                     ` Kévin Le Gouguec
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 15+ messages in thread
From: Kévin Le Gouguec @ 2022-06-24  5:58 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 56117; +Cc: Eli Zaretskii

(Taken off-list because I'd rather limit the noise; I'm very likely
missing something)

Po Lu via "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text
editors" <bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> writes:

> Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:
>
>> And there's absolutely no way for Emacs to get at the original keys?
>
> It can by turning the input method off, but as a result any features
> provided by them will no longer work.

I'm a bit confused by that statement; you may remember that silly
experiment I ran in bug#52795?

https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi/bugreport.cgi?att=1;msg=17;filename=goof.patch;bug=52795

Po Lu <luangruo@yahoo.com> writes:

> Kévin Le Gouguec <kevin.legouguec@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> AFAICT Emacs receives enough information to see S-SPC?
>
> Yes, but after going through an input method module the S-SPC is lost.
>
>> No idea how easy it would be to pass on that information to the rest
>> of Emacs.
>
> Not easy, if we want to keep input methods (which GTK uses to implement
> the compose key) working.

At the time that left me with the impression that in principle, Emacs
could record what it received before "going through an input method" and
recover the lost information after the input method did its (bad) job;
in practice I assume that would be a very horrible kludge and a
nightmare to maintain.

Was that impression correct?  I'm not pushing for such a kludge; just
wondering if it's in the realm of possibility.





^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 15+ messages in thread

* bug#56117: 29.0.50; pgtk does not distinguish between <kp-separator> and "."/","
  2022-06-24  5:58                   ` Kévin Le Gouguec
@ 2022-06-24 16:43                     ` Kévin Le Gouguec
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 15+ messages in thread
From: Kévin Le Gouguec @ 2022-06-24 16:43 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 56117

Kévin Le Gouguec <kevin.legouguec@gmail.com> writes:

> (Taken off-list because I'd rather limit the noise; I'm very likely
> missing something)

(Note to self: code a hook that looks for any parenthesized sentence
containing the phrase "off-list" before sending, and checks that indeed,
no list is among the recipients 🤦)





^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 15+ messages in thread

end of thread, other threads:[~2022-06-24 16:43 UTC | newest]

Thread overview: 15+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed)
-- links below jump to the message on this page --
2022-06-20 23:02 bug#56117: 29.0.50; pgtk does not distinguish between <kp-separator> and "."/"," Thomas Schneider
2022-06-21  2:00 ` Po Lu via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors
2022-06-22 20:44   ` Stefan Kangas
2022-06-23  0:44     ` Po Lu via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors
2022-06-23  7:51       ` Lars Ingebrigtsen
2022-06-23  8:16         ` Po Lu via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors
2022-06-23  8:28           ` Eli Zaretskii
2022-06-23  8:40             ` Po Lu via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors
2022-06-23  9:49               ` Eli Zaretskii
2022-06-23 10:02                 ` Po Lu via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors
2022-06-23 10:19                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2022-06-23 11:37                     ` Po Lu via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors
2022-06-23 13:00                       ` Eli Zaretskii
2022-06-24  5:58                   ` Kévin Le Gouguec
2022-06-24 16:43                     ` Kévin Le Gouguec

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