From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: =?UTF-8?Q?=E7=A9=8D=E4=B8=B9=E5=B0=BC?= Dan Jacobson Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.bugs Subject: bug#34289: Mention why killed groups come back anyway next time one starts gnus Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2019 06:53:13 +0800 Message-ID: <87sgr9wnqe.5.fsf@jidanni.org> References: <87lg30xrvt.fsf@jidanni.org> <8736k1cdjg.2.fsf@jidanni.org> <87zhlntfiq.5.fsf@jidanni.org> <87lfx7w78m.5.fsf@jidanni.org> <87ftndxw4n.5.fsf@jidanni.org> <871rywcrtv.5.fsf@jidanni.org> <87ftnctims.fsf@ericabrahamsen.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Injection-Info: blaine.gmane.org; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:195.159.176.226"; logging-data="269650"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@blaine.gmane.org" Cc: Lars Ingebrigtsen , 34289@debbugs.gnu.org To: Eric Abrahamsen Original-X-From: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sun Jul 14 01:02:12 2019 Return-path: Envelope-to: geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by blaine.gmane.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1hmR1v-00182D-DA for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Sun, 14 Jul 2019 01:02:11 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:58320 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.86_2) (envelope-from ) id 1hmR1u-0004ix-9u for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Sat, 13 Jul 2019 19:02:10 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:43930) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.86_2) (envelope-from ) id 1hmR1q-0004iS-IO for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sat, 13 Jul 2019 19:02:07 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1hmR1o-0006wt-Ia for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sat, 13 Jul 2019 19:02:06 -0400 Original-Received: from debbugs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.43]:34760) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1hmR1m-0006w2-AH for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sat, 13 Jul 2019 19:02:02 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-debbugs by debbugs.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1hmR1m-0001Gy-4J; Sat, 13 Jul 2019 19:02:02 -0400 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org In-Reply-To: <87lg30xrvt.fsf@jidanni.org> Resent-From: =?UTF-8?Q?=E7=A9=8D=E4=B8=B9=E5=B0=BC?= Dan Jacobson Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org, bugs@gnus.org Resent-Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2019 23:02:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 34289 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs,gnus X-GNU-PR-Keywords: notabug Original-Received: via spool by 34289-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B34289.15630588884834 (code B ref 34289); Sat, 13 Jul 2019 23:02:02 +0000 Original-Received: (at 34289) by debbugs.gnu.org; 13 Jul 2019 23:01:28 +0000 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:43578 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1hmR1E-0001Ft-AQ for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 13 Jul 2019 19:01:28 -0400 Original-Received: from dog.birch.relay.mailchannels.net ([23.83.209.48]:15162) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1hmR1C-0001Fj-BS for 34289@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 13 Jul 2019 19:01:27 -0400 X-Sender-Id: dreamhost|x-authsender|jidanni@jidanni.org Original-Received: from relay.mailchannels.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by relay.mailchannels.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0741E2C2391; Sat, 13 Jul 2019 23:01:25 +0000 (UTC) Original-Received: from pdx1-sub0-mail-a44.g.dreamhost.com (100-96-38-48.trex.outbound.svc.cluster.local [100.96.38.48]) (Authenticated sender: dreamhost) by relay.mailchannels.net (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 794AE2C226D; Sat, 13 Jul 2019 23:01:24 +0000 (UTC) X-Sender-Id: dreamhost|x-authsender|jidanni@jidanni.org Original-Received: from pdx1-sub0-mail-a44.g.dreamhost.com ([TEMPUNAVAIL]. [64.90.62.162]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384) by 0.0.0.0:2500 (trex/5.17.3); Sat, 13 Jul 2019 23:01:24 +0000 X-MC-Relay: Neutral X-MailChannels-SenderId: dreamhost|x-authsender|jidanni@jidanni.org X-MailChannels-Auth-Id: dreamhost X-Illustrious-White: 06a523673edaa3e2_1563058884844_3734526408 X-MC-Loop-Signature: 1563058884844:2944060308 X-MC-Ingress-Time: 1563058884844 Original-Received: from pdx1-sub0-mail-a44.g.dreamhost.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pdx1-sub0-mail-a44.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 91D948221F; Sat, 13 Jul 2019 16:01:20 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=jidanni.org; h=from:to:cc :subject:references:date:message-id:mime-version:content-type; s=jidanni.org; bh=728o5rZdGQK3g1vHDM9O7WfiCg0=; b=IzwmtaJ2WnPA2 sNYO6opdu9eU5QAXI2jEGYeCVIYNGPtSDPFOQDTtY0i+09mE4cTCnVzfJ/jk3mnn GkHVKCaWcRUY1FG4UFMKzco8u+ovQrrnq1ZmMCCzuTr7AxpYaTFtTbiZD4rUfAQr gRZVme1P1teuninMyOPr9tG7VEaC7k= Original-Received: from jidanni.org (1-170-84-250.dynamic-ip.hinet.net [1.170.84.250]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: jidanni@jidanni.org) by pdx1-sub0-mail-a44.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 6BF8582225; Sat, 13 Jul 2019 16:01:19 -0700 (PDT) X-DH-BACKEND: pdx1-sub0-mail-a44 X-VR-OUT-STATUS: OK X-VR-OUT-SCORE: -100 X-VR-OUT-SPAMCAUSE: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgeduvddrheeggddtvdcutefuodetggdotefrodftvfcurfhrohhfihhlvgemucggtfgfnhhsuhgsshgtrhhisggvpdfftffgtefojffquffvnecuuegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecusecvtfgvtghiphhivghnthhsucdlqddutddtmdenucfjughrpefhvffufhffkfggtgesthdtredttddtjeenucfhrhhomhepnjjnnjcuffgrnhculfgrtghosghsohhnuceojhhiuggrnhhnihesjhhiuggrnhhnihdrohhrgheqnecukfhppedurddujedtrdekgedrvdehtdenucfrrghrrghmpehmohguvgepshhmthhppdhhvghlohepjhhiuggrnhhnihdrohhrghdpihhnvghtpedurddujedtrdekgedrvdehtddprhgvthhurhhnqdhprghthheppeeruhhtfhdqkeerueerheeimhfphefnihehhegsveekreepucffrghnucflrggtohgsshhonhcuoehjihgurghnnhhisehjihgurghnnhhirdhorhhgqedpmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpehjihgurghnnhhisehjihgurghnnhhirdhorhhgpdhnrhgtphhtthhopeefgedvkeelseguvggssghughhsrdhgnhhurdhorhhgnecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptd X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 209.51.188.43 X-BeenThere: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org List-Id: "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "bug-gnu-emacs" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.bugs:162945 Archived-At: ANYWAY, let's take a look at why I use $ mutt -f /some/mbox instead of gnus, for various simple mboxs laying around my system. For gnus all I know is once it gets hold of a mbox, it is very hard to completely eliminate the knowledge of it from gnus' vast dark interiors with gnus' vast dark commands. You fellows were talking about even viewing debbugs with gnus... no way! It would surely leave some list of read articles somewhere in gnus vast interiors (including SCORE lists, group kill lists, who knows.) In fact, just like Google has a Data Retention Policy statement, the gnus manual should, as an appendix, list all the ways one can be sure he can finally get rid of each type of nn-this, nn-that mailbox, (along with article KILL lists, group KILL lists, article SCORE lists, who knows.) (Yes, gnus retains data on your home computer, not in the Gnus Towers, but still needs a statement on how to get rid of it.) I don't care one bit about "data privacy". I'm just looking at this from the point of "can the user successfully reduce the size (bytes, lines) of the various pieces of gnus back to what they were before he 'subscribed' to some mailbox. (Also what if he doesn't want to remove the mailbox from the system, he just doesn't want gnus to "know about it at all" anymore.) Yes mention that gnus keeps some items (messages) for one week for your own good... and yes documents how to get rid of them now... And mention how the user can double check to be sure that he really did clean the thing he wanted to out of gnus' vast Orwellian databases that one currently must use lsof(1) and find ~ -mmin 111 etc. to track down! In fact (info "(gnus) The End") should also mention let's say the user wanted to eliminate every trace of gnus's stuff from his $HOME. First go through all the key strokes he needs. That should probably leave a few lisp database files/directory structure, almost zero size with no entries. Then probably a few shell commands are needed to get rid of those too, so he can finally get back to day 1 state before he started. I'm not asking you to tell me the answer. (I long ago solved it via "forensic analysis" and now that the data is gone, I also naturally forgot the details.) I'm saying all this needs to be added as an appendix to (info "(gnus) The End"). Getting rid of the memory of 1. individual messages 2. groups 3. entire gnus. Sure "It's all already documented. Bye." Yeah, scattered among the various info pages, with no dedicated page for those who want to "How do I permanently remove my ...".