* bug#51361: 28.0.60; NS toolbar icons are too big and low res
@ 2021-10-23 19:09 Carlos Pita
2021-10-23 20:21 ` Alan Third
2021-10-24 2:22 ` Po Lu via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors
0 siblings, 2 replies; 12+ messages in thread
From: Carlos Pita @ 2021-10-23 19:09 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 51361
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Hi all,
(see attached screenshot)
This is probably the NS backend rendering things x2 in a HiDPI screen,
so the "too big" part doesn't necessarily mean bigger than usual but:
* Considering that the toolbar is part of the titlebar in this port.
* Considering that scaling x2 pixelates the icons.
Wouldn't it be better if it weren't scaled at all, so that we don't have
a huge title bar with low res icons? I don't know how difficult it is to
request a different scaling factor for these icons, but if it's feasible
without a significant amount of effort I believe it's worth it.
Best regards,
Carlos
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---
In GNU Emacs 28.0.60 (build 4, x86_64-apple-darwin20.6.0, NS appkit-2022.60 Version 11.6 (Build 20G165))
of 2021-10-22 built on Carloss-MacBook-Pro.local
Repository revision: d8d39ac9c6b670fe6931131c034cd64025041c7f
Repository branch: emacs-28
Windowing system distributor 'Apple', version 10.3.2022
System Description: macOS 11.6
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doom-modeline-core shrink-path rx f s all-the-icons all-the-icons-faces
data-material data-weathericons data-octicons data-fileicons
data-faicons data-alltheicons dash doom-modeline-autoloads
shrink-path-autoloads f-autoloads dash-autoloads s-autoloads
all-the-icons-autoloads doom-themes-ext-org doom-themes-ext-treemacs
doom-themes-ext-visual-bell face-remap doom-solarized-light-theme
doom-themes doom-themes-base doom-themes-autoloads finder-inf
ns-auto-titlebar ns-auto-titlebar-autoloads use-package-core
use-package-autoloads bind-key-autoloads straight-autoloads info cl-seq
cl-extra help-mode seq byte-opt straight subr-x cl-macs gv cl-loaddefs
cl-lib bytecomp byte-compile cconv iso-transl tooltip eldoc paren
electric uniquify ediff-hook vc-hooks lisp-float-type elisp-mode mwheel
term/ns-win ns-win ucs-normalize mule-util term/common-win tool-bar dnd
fontset image regexp-opt fringe tabulated-list replace newcomment
text-mode lisp-mode prog-mode register page tab-bar menu-bar rfn-eshadow
isearch easymenu timer select scroll-bar mouse jit-lock font-lock syntax
font-core term/tty-colors frame minibuffer cl-generic cham georgian
utf-8-lang misc-lang vietnamese tibetan thai tai-viet lao korean
japanese eucjp-ms cp51932 hebrew greek romanian slovak czech european
ethiopic indian cyrillic chinese composite emoji-zwj charscript charprop
case-table epa-hook jka-cmpr-hook help simple abbrev obarray
cl-preloaded nadvice button loaddefs faces cus-face macroexp files
window text-properties overlay sha1 md5 base64 format env code-pages
mule custom widget hashtable-print-readable backquote threads dbusbind
kqueue cocoa ns lcms2 multi-tty make-network-process emacs)
Memory information:
((conses 16 473210 43098)
(symbols 48 37949 1)
(strings 32 135964 6357)
(string-bytes 1 4866601)
(vectors 16 75007)
(vector-slots 8 1686100 172881)
(floats 8 1124 450)
(intervals 56 3419 2341)
(buffers 992 31))
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread
* bug#51361: 28.0.60; NS toolbar icons are too big and low res
2021-10-23 19:09 bug#51361: 28.0.60; NS toolbar icons are too big and low res Carlos Pita
@ 2021-10-23 20:21 ` Alan Third
2021-10-24 1:35 ` Carlos Pita
2021-10-24 2:24 ` Po Lu via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors
2021-10-24 2:22 ` Po Lu via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors
1 sibling, 2 replies; 12+ messages in thread
From: Alan Third @ 2021-10-23 20:21 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Carlos Pita; +Cc: 51361
package emacs
user emacs
usertag 51361 + ns
thankyou
On Sat, Oct 23, 2021 at 04:09:18PM -0300, Carlos Pita wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> (see attached screenshot)
>
> This is probably the NS backend rendering things x2 in a HiDPI screen,
> so the "too big" part doesn't necessarily mean bigger than usual but:
>
> * Considering that the toolbar is part of the titlebar in this port.
>
> * Considering that scaling x2 pixelates the icons.
>
> Wouldn't it be better if it weren't scaled at all, so that we don't have
> a huge title bar with low res icons? I don't know how difficult it is to
> request a different scaling factor for these icons, but if it's feasible
> without a significant amount of effort I believe it's worth it.
I'm not keen to have things show up at different sizes when displayed
on retina vs not on retina. For people (like myself) who have
differently scaled screens, it can result in things magically changing
size, or showing up scaled incorrectly at random. The correct solution
should be to provide hi-res or rescalable icons that are displayed
well at whatever scale the screen has.
Unfortunately that means finding icons that are suitable, and I
suspect for the NS port it may not be super-straightforward to
handle them in the toolbar. I'd have to investigate.
I expect this should be a problem for the PGTK port as well, since it
uses the same scaling method.
--
Alan Third
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread
* bug#51361: 28.0.60; NS toolbar icons are too big and low res
2021-10-23 20:21 ` Alan Third
@ 2021-10-24 1:35 ` Carlos Pita
2021-10-24 2:24 ` Po Lu via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors
1 sibling, 0 replies; 12+ messages in thread
From: Carlos Pita @ 2021-10-24 1:35 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Alan Third; +Cc: 51361
Hi Alan,
> I'm not keen to have things show up at different sizes when displayed
> on retina vs not on retina.
Fair enough.
> Unfortunately that means finding icons that are suitable, and I
> suspect for the NS port it may not be super-straightforward to
> handle them in the toolbar. I'd have to investigate.
Now that rsvg support is built by default, svg seems to be the sensible
choice. Although maybe the icons in the toolbar are rendered natively
and emacs svg support is not even required? Good svg icons are a dime a
dozen (but replacing every icon in emacs doesn't strike me as the most
exciting task...). Both NS and Wayland still do a raster downscaling at
the end for fractional scales, so no solution will be pixel-perfect in
such cases, neither svg nor double resolution pixmaps, but with svg you
won't be having the same problem in a few years and, for platforms that
do support direct rendering at non-integer scales (maybe Windows, I
don't know), svg is a natural choice.
Best regards,
Carlos
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread
* bug#51361: 28.0.60; NS toolbar icons are too big and low res
2021-10-23 20:21 ` Alan Third
2021-10-24 1:35 ` Carlos Pita
@ 2021-10-24 2:24 ` Po Lu via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors
2021-10-26 10:18 ` Alan Third
1 sibling, 1 reply; 12+ messages in thread
From: Po Lu via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors @ 2021-10-24 2:24 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Alan Third; +Cc: 51361, Carlos Pita
Alan Third <alan@idiocy.org> writes:
> I expect this should be a problem for the PGTK port as well, since it
> uses the same scaling method.
(I don't speak for the author of the GTK port, but I worked on it a
while back, so take what I say here with a grain of salt.)
I think the GTK port just reuses the existing code in gtkutil for
toolkit tool bars. IOW, the scaling is done by GTK.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread
* bug#51361: 28.0.60; NS toolbar icons are too big and low res
2021-10-24 2:24 ` Po Lu via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors
@ 2021-10-26 10:18 ` Alan Third
2021-10-26 10:32 ` Po Lu via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors
0 siblings, 1 reply; 12+ messages in thread
From: Alan Third @ 2021-10-26 10:18 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Po Lu; +Cc: 51361, Carlos Pita
On Sun, Oct 24, 2021 at 10:24:10AM +0800, Po Lu wrote:
> Alan Third <alan@idiocy.org> writes:
>
> > I expect this should be a problem for the PGTK port as well, since it
> > uses the same scaling method.
>
> (I don't speak for the author of the GTK port, but I worked on it a
> while back, so take what I say here with a grain of salt.)
>
> I think the GTK port just reuses the existing code in gtkutil for
> toolkit tool bars. IOW, the scaling is done by GTK.
Yeah, and GTK uses the same scaling scheme as macOS.
--
Alan Third
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread
* bug#51361: 28.0.60; NS toolbar icons are too big and low res
2021-10-26 10:18 ` Alan Third
@ 2021-10-26 10:32 ` Po Lu via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors
2021-10-26 10:58 ` Alan Third
2021-10-26 10:59 ` Dmitry Gutov
0 siblings, 2 replies; 12+ messages in thread
From: Po Lu via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors @ 2021-10-26 10:32 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Alan Third; +Cc: 51361, Carlos Pita
Alan Third <alan@idiocy.org> writes:
> Yeah, and GTK uses the same scaling scheme as macOS.
At least on the high-dpi displays I've seen, I've never seen this sort
of effect on GTK builds.
Thanks.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread
* bug#51361: 28.0.60; NS toolbar icons are too big and low res
2021-10-26 10:32 ` Po Lu via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors
@ 2021-10-26 10:58 ` Alan Third
2021-10-26 11:18 ` Po Lu via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors
2021-10-26 10:59 ` Dmitry Gutov
1 sibling, 1 reply; 12+ messages in thread
From: Alan Third @ 2021-10-26 10:58 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Po Lu; +Cc: 51361, Carlos Pita
On Tue, Oct 26, 2021 at 06:32:36PM +0800, Po Lu wrote:
> Alan Third <alan@idiocy.org> writes:
>
> > Yeah, and GTK uses the same scaling scheme as macOS.
>
> At least on the high-dpi displays I've seen, I've never seen this sort
> of effect on GTK builds.
I'm not sure what you mean.
Emacs only supplies lores icons. GTK scales up the size of the toolbar
according to the scale settings. Therefore GTK Emacs will have lores
icons that are scaled up by the scaling factor in its toolbar.
This is identical to how cocoa and GNUstep handle it.
The exception is where GTK uses other, non-emacs, icons, which is
quite common.
--
Alan Third
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread
* bug#51361: 28.0.60; NS toolbar icons are too big and low res
2021-10-26 10:58 ` Alan Third
@ 2021-10-26 11:18 ` Po Lu via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors
2021-11-15 17:07 ` Carlos Pita
0 siblings, 1 reply; 12+ messages in thread
From: Po Lu via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors @ 2021-10-26 11:18 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Alan Third; +Cc: 51361, Carlos Pita
Alan Third <alan@idiocy.org> writes:
> I'm not sure what you mean.
>
> Emacs only supplies lores icons. GTK scales up the size of the toolbar
> according to the scale settings. Therefore GTK Emacs will have lores
> icons that are scaled up by the scaling factor in its toolbar.
>
> This is identical to how cocoa and GNUstep handle it.
> The exception is where GTK uses other, non-emacs, icons, which is
> quite common.
Yes, I'm aware of that. I made sure to clear x-gtk-stock-map and
x-gtk-stock-cache before reaching these conclusions.
What I was saying is that, to my eyes, the way GTK scales these icons
results in less cognitive "blur" than the icons posted in the screenshot
attached by the OP, which seems to implicate Cocoa performing some kind
of "smoothing" operation on the scaled icon.
Or perhaps this could be an effect of viewing the OP's screenshot,
presumably taken on a high-resolution display, on my ordinary FHD
display.
Thanks.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread
* bug#51361: 28.0.60; NS toolbar icons are too big and low res
2021-10-26 11:18 ` Po Lu via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors
@ 2021-11-15 17:07 ` Carlos Pita
2021-11-16 19:41 ` Rudolf Adamkovič via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors
0 siblings, 1 reply; 12+ messages in thread
From: Carlos Pita @ 2021-11-15 17:07 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Po Lu; +Cc: 51361, Alan Third
> Or perhaps this could be an effect of viewing the OP's screenshot,
> presumably taken on a high-resolution display, on my ordinary FHD
> display.
In my MacBook I set the scaling factor to 2x, although the default is
about 1.75x since a few years ago. I also have an external monitor at
1.75x, here I would expect some slight blur because of the non-integer
downscaling but I'm not sure whether my screenshot was taken from this
screen (or even if the downscaling should affect it in any way).
Nevertheless, on what matters the example provided by Dmitry and mine
are the same: excessively scaled icons. Additionally, in macOS these
icons are part of the titlebar so they feel odd and too big compared
to the GTK toolbar, which is just an old school toolbar with large
icons. Look at the large padding around traffic lights. If the GTK
port were using CSD people would probably complain about a thick
titlebar, as they often do because of Adwaita defaults. This is why I
suggested tackling both problems by showing the icons at 1x, although
I understand Alan concerns about this.
Small rant: Wouldn't it be preferable to hide the toolbar by default
in hidpi screens, or in macOS, until the icons are replaced with
properly scalable versions, which might take a long time? I can't see
any positive trade off in showing something like what's in my
screenshot first thing. This is not about making emacs look "modern"
by default, but just less awful, I would go as far as to call icons
scaled at twice their intended resolution a bug. Fringe pixmaps are
tolerable because at their tiny size the problem isn't actually that
visible. There are other places where small lores icons are shown, but
not often. The toolbar, instead, is big and permanent and many people,
including newcomers, disable it (I think this is a fairly objective
statement since "modern emacs distributions" targeted to newbies hide
it OOTB, although it's true that they might add alternative discovery
mechanisms, not to say that I believe the toolbar is incredibly
helpful in that regard).
Best regards,
Carlos
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread
* bug#51361: 28.0.60; NS toolbar icons are too big and low res
2021-11-15 17:07 ` Carlos Pita
@ 2021-11-16 19:41 ` Rudolf Adamkovič via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors
0 siblings, 0 replies; 12+ messages in thread
From: Rudolf Adamkovič via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors @ 2021-11-16 19:41 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Carlos Pita, Po Lu; +Cc: 51361, Alan Third
Carlos Pita <carlosjosepita2@gmail.com> writes:
> Small rant: […]
I could not agree more. I hesitate to recommend vanilla GNU Emacs to anyone on macOS, for it looks like a program abandoned 20 years ago, and that freaks people out. I know it freaked me out. :) No icons would make it look more normal.
Rudy
--
"Logic is a science of the necessary laws of thought, without which no employment of the understanding and the reason takes place." -- Immanuel Kant, 1785
Rudolf Adamkovič <salutis@me.com>
Studenohorská 25
84103 Bratislava
Slovakia
[he/him]
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread
* bug#51361: 28.0.60; NS toolbar icons are too big and low res
2021-10-26 10:32 ` Po Lu via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors
2021-10-26 10:58 ` Alan Third
@ 2021-10-26 10:59 ` Dmitry Gutov
1 sibling, 0 replies; 12+ messages in thread
From: Dmitry Gutov @ 2021-10-26 10:59 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Po Lu, Alan Third; +Cc: 51361, Carlos Pita
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 515 bytes --]
On 26.10.2021 13:32, Po Lu via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army
knife of text editors wrote:
> At least on the high-dpi displays I've seen, I've never seen this sort
> of effect on GTK builds.
Perhaps because the GTK port uses icons provided by the system theme
(often scalable ones, or coming in multiple sizes).
But try 'M-x gnus' with the tool-bar-mode on, and the send/receive icons
at the top will be squarely in that category (see attachment).
Seems like some sort of linear/quadratic scaling.
[-- Attachment #2: Screenshot from 2021-10-26 13-54-44.png --]
[-- Type: image/png, Size: 50054 bytes --]
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread
* bug#51361: 28.0.60; NS toolbar icons are too big and low res
2021-10-23 19:09 bug#51361: 28.0.60; NS toolbar icons are too big and low res Carlos Pita
2021-10-23 20:21 ` Alan Third
@ 2021-10-24 2:22 ` Po Lu via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors
1 sibling, 0 replies; 12+ messages in thread
From: Po Lu via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors @ 2021-10-24 2:22 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Carlos Pita; +Cc: 51361
Carlos Pita <carlosjosepita2@gmail.com> writes:
> [... attachment ...]
This looks to me as if some kind of smoothing is being applied to the
icons, instead of plain scaling, which usually produces admirable
results on X pixmaps.
I don't think it's done in GNUstep. There is probably a way to turn it
off in macOS, but I can't find it.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2021-11-16 19:41 UTC | newest]
Thread overview: 12+ messages (download: mbox.gz follow: Atom feed
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2021-10-23 19:09 bug#51361: 28.0.60; NS toolbar icons are too big and low res Carlos Pita
2021-10-23 20:21 ` Alan Third
2021-10-24 1:35 ` Carlos Pita
2021-10-24 2:24 ` Po Lu via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors
2021-10-26 10:18 ` Alan Third
2021-10-26 10:32 ` Po Lu via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors
2021-10-26 10:58 ` Alan Third
2021-10-26 11:18 ` Po Lu via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors
2021-11-15 17:07 ` Carlos Pita
2021-11-16 19:41 ` Rudolf Adamkovič via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors
2021-10-26 10:59 ` Dmitry Gutov
2021-10-24 2:22 ` Po Lu via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors
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