bug#59258: 28.2; [Emacs Manual] Available PDFs are outdated/obsolete

bug#59258: 28.2; [Emacs Manual] Available PDFs are outdated/obsolete

[Rafael Beirigo]

I just reported a bug on

    https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/pdf/emacs_7x9.pdf
    
but I just saw the listing

    Index of /software/emacs/manual/pdf

     [ICO]  Name  Last modified  Size  Description  
     -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------  
     [PARENTDIR]  Parent Directory     -      
     [ ]  eintr.pdf  2022-10-12 22:46   1.0M     
     [ ]  elisp.pdf  2022-10-12 22:46   4.6M     
     [ ]  elisp_7x9_vol1.pdf  2013-07-05 12:08   3.3M     
     [ ]  elisp_7x9_vol2.pdf  2013-07-05 12:08   3.2M     
     [ ]  emacs-xtra.pdf  2022-10-12 22:46   373K     
     [ ]  emacs.pdf  2022-10-12 22:46   2.8M     
     [ ]  emacs_7x9.pdf  2013-07-05 12:08   3.7M     

Instead of fixing the bug I reported, I suggest the old files are
removed.  These are the one mentioned above and two more:

    emacs_7x9.pdf
    elisp_7x9_vol1.pdf
    elisp_7x9_vol2.pdf

In GNU Emacs 28.2 (build 1, x86_64-pc-linux-gnu, GTK+ Version 3.24.5, cairo version 1.16.0)
 of 2022-11-08 built on bach
Windowing system distributor 'The X.Org Foundation', version 11.0.12004000
System Description: Debian GNU/Linux 10 (buster)

Configured features:
ACL CAIRO DBUS FREETYPE GIF GLIB GMP GNUTLS GPM GSETTINGS HARFBUZZ JPEG
JSON LCMS2 LIBOTF LIBSELINUX LIBSYSTEMD LIBXML2 M17N_FLT MODULES NOTIFY
INOTIFY PDUMPER PNG RSVG SECCOMP SOUND THREADS TIFF TOOLKIT_SCROLL_BARS
X11 XDBE XIM XPM GTK3 ZLIB

Important settings:
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  locale-coding-system: utf-8-unix

Major mode: PDFView

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  overwrite-mode: overwrite-mode-textual

Load-path shadows:
/home/rafa/.emacs.d/elpa/transient-20221028.1430/transient hides /usr/local/share/emacs/28.2/lisp/transient

Features:
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 (buffers 992 93))

bug#59258: 28.2; [Emacs Manual] Available PDFs are outdated/obsolete

[Stefan Kangas]

Rafael Beirigo <rafaelbeirigo@gmail.com> writes:

> Instead of fixing the bug I reported, I suggest the old files are
> removed.  These are the one mentioned above and two more:
>
>     emacs_7x9.pdf
>     elisp_7x9_vol1.pdf
>     elisp_7x9_vol2.pdf

These files seem to be for the PDF for the print editions released in
2013, but I might be wrong.

It seems like we anyways aren't keeping an online archive of the PDF for
all print editions, so I guess deleting them could avoid some confusion.

Eli?  Richard?

bug#59258: 28.2; [Emacs Manual] Available PDFs are outdated/obsolete

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@gmail.com>
> Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2022 19:20:02 -0800
> Cc: rms@gnu.org, eliz@gnu.org
> 
> Rafael Beirigo <rafaelbeirigo@gmail.com> writes:
> 
> > Instead of fixing the bug I reported, I suggest the old files are
> > removed.  These are the one mentioned above and two more:
> >
> >     emacs_7x9.pdf
> >     elisp_7x9_vol1.pdf
> >     elisp_7x9_vol2.pdf
> 
> These files seem to be for the PDF for the print editions released in
> 2013, but I might be wrong.
> 
> It seems like we anyways aren't keeping an online archive of the PDF for
> all print editions, so I guess deleting them could avoid some confusion.
> 
> Eli?  Richard?

AFAIU, these are the manuals that the FSF sells in their shop.  I'd
rather not delete them, because when they decide to print another
edition, someone may wish to look at these to see how they decorated
the book etc.  So I'd rather rename them to avoid confusion, and leave
them there.

Thanks.

bug#59258: 28.2; [Emacs Manual] Available PDFs are outdated/obsolete

[Stefan Kangas]

Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:

> AFAIU, these are the manuals that the FSF sells in their shop.  I'd
> rather not delete them, because when they decide to print another
> edition, someone may wish to look at these to see how they decorated
> the book etc.  So I'd rather rename them to avoid confusion, and leave
> them there.

How about moving them to a subdirectory "old", does that sound okay?

bug#59258: 28.2; [Emacs Manual] Available PDFs are outdated/obsolete

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@gmail.com>
> Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2022 00:05:13 -0800
> Cc: rafaelbeirigo@gmail.com, 59258@debbugs.gnu.org, rms@gnu.org
> 
> Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:
> 
> > AFAIU, these are the manuals that the FSF sells in their shop.  I'd
> > rather not delete them, because when they decide to print another
> > edition, someone may wish to look at these to see how they decorated
> > the book etc.  So I'd rather rename them to avoid confusion, and leave
> > them there.
> 
> How about moving them to a subdirectory "old", does that sound okay?

I'm okay with a subdirectory, but let's use a better name for it, for
example 'printed_books' or something to that effect.

bug#59258: 28.2; [Emacs Manual] Available PDFs are outdated/obsolete

[Stefan Kangas]

Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:

>> How about moving them to a subdirectory "old", does that sound okay?
>
> I'm okay with a subdirectory, but let's use a better name for it, for
> example 'printed_books' or something to that effect.

Thanks, now moved to a subdirectory named "printed_books".  Should
appear here shortly:

    https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/pdf/printed_books/

I'm therefore closing this bug report.

bug#59258: 28.2; [Emacs Manual] Available PDFs are outdated/obsolete

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > AFAIU, these are the manuals that the FSF sells in their shop.  I'd
  > rather not delete them, because when they decide to print another
  > edition,

It would be good for the maintainers to talk with the FSF about when
to publish a new paper edition.

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org)
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

bug#59258: 28.2; [Emacs Manual] Available PDFs are outdated/obsolete

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org>
> Cc: stefankangas@gmail.com, rafaelbeirigo@gmail.com,
> 	59258@debbugs.gnu.org
> Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2022 00:05:49 -0500
> 
>   > AFAIU, these are the manuals that the FSF sells in their shop.  I'd
>   > rather not delete them, because when they decide to print another
>   > edition,
> 
> It would be good for the maintainers to talk with the FSF about when
> to publish a new paper edition.

It's usually the other way around: when the FSF is about to publish a
new version of some Emacs manual, someone from the FSF contacts us and
asks to produce a specially-formatted PDF file.  They also show us the
colophon and the back-cover text and ask us to proof-read it for
factual mistakes; for example, the list of supported programming
languages and important features changes from edition to edition.

Because this happens once in a very long while, people tend to forget
what was done for previous printings, and that's why it is important
to keep the last printed book, so one could look inside and recollect
what was done and how.

bug#59258: 28.2; [Emacs Manual] Available PDFs are outdated/obsolete

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > > It would be good for the maintainers to talk with the FSF about when
  > > to publish a new paper edition.

  > It's usually the other way around: when the FSF is about to publish a
  > new version of some Emacs manual, someone from the FSF contacts us and
  > asks to produce a specially-formatted PDF file.

I know.  But even if they are not about to reprint, we might want to
suggest printing a newer edition corresponding to Emacs 29.

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org)
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

bug#59258: 28.2; [Emacs Manual] Available PDFs are outdated/obsolete

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org>
> Cc: rafaelbeirigo@gmail.com, 59258@debbugs.gnu.org,
> 	stefankangas@gmail.com
> Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2022 20:15:35 -0500
> 
>   > > It would be good for the maintainers to talk with the FSF about when
>   > > to publish a new paper edition.
> 
>   > It's usually the other way around: when the FSF is about to publish a
>   > new version of some Emacs manual, someone from the FSF contacts us and
>   > asks to produce a specially-formatted PDF file.
> 
> I know.  But even if they are not about to reprint, we might want to
> suggest printing a newer edition corresponding to Emacs 29.

I'm not sure I understand.  Are you saying that we should suggest to the FSF
to make a new printing, on our own initiative?  If so, I don't think we are
aware of the FSF considerations for when they want to print the books again.
Every major Emacs release changes the manuals in fundamental ways, but does
the FSF indeed want to publish a new edition whenever a new major release of
Emacs is out (or maybe even when it's in final stages of pretest)?

bug#59258: 28.2; [Emacs Manual] Available PDFs are outdated/obsolete

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > I'm not sure I understand.  Are you saying that we should suggest to the FSF
  > to make a new printing, on our own initiative?

I think it would make sense to tell them roughly when we expect the
next re;ease to occur.  That would help them decide whether to make a
new edition soon.

  > but does
  > the FSF indeed want to publish a new edition whenever a new major release of
  > Emacs is out (or maybe even when it's in final stages of pretest)?

I think it wants to _consider_ publishing a new edition at those
times.  The decision could depend on a number of details, such as how
many copies they have on hand and how fast they would sell. etc, but
we can let them worry about that.


-- 
Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org)
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

bug#59258: 28.2; [Emacs Manual] Available PDFs are outdated/obsolete

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org>
> Cc: rafaelbeirigo@gmail.com, 59258@debbugs.gnu.org,
> 	stefankangas@gmail.com
> Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2022 18:16:41 -0500
> 
>   > I'm not sure I understand.  Are you saying that we should suggest to the FSF
>   > to make a new printing, on our own initiative?
> 
> I think it would make sense to tell them roughly when we expect the
> next release to occur.  That would help them decide whether to make a
> new edition soon.
> 
>   > but does
>   > the FSF indeed want to publish a new edition whenever a new major release of
>   > Emacs is out (or maybe even when it's in final stages of pretest)?
> 
> I think it wants to _consider_ publishing a new edition at those
> times.  The decision could depend on a number of details, such as how
> many copies they have on hand and how fast they would sell. etc, but
> we can let them worry about that.

I can communicate our release plans to them if you tell me to whom should I
speak about it.  (I didn't know they expected to get such information from
us.)

bug#59258: 28.2; [Emacs Manual] Available PDFs are outdated/obsolete

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > I can communicate our release plans to them if you tell me to whom should I
  > speak about it.  (I didn't know they expected to get such information from
  > us.)

I am not sure of the right place to send mail to, but Zoe surely
knows.  I will ask her.

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org)
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)