From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: =?UTF-8?Q?=C5=A0t=C4=9Bp=C3=A1n_?= =?UTF-8?Q?N=C4=9Bmec?= Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.bugs Subject: bug#7367: 24.0.50; change logs in source code Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2010 17:42:15 +0100 Message-ID: <87oc9vg6c8.fsf@gmail.com> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: dough.gmane.org 1289496673 27847 80.91.229.12 (11 Nov 2010 17:31:13 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2010 17:31:13 +0000 (UTC) Cc: 7367@debbugs.gnu.org To: "Drew Adams" Original-X-From: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Thu Nov 11 18:31:08 2010 Return-path: Envelope-to: geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1PGazA-0006s8-PJ for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Thu, 11 Nov 2010 18:31:01 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:49378 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1PGaz2-0005cY-KC for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; 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Thu, 11 Nov 2010 16:40:03 +0000 Original-Received: (at 7367) by debbugs.gnu.org; 11 Nov 2010 16:39:06 +0000 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1PGaAz-0003v7-Nf for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 11 Nov 2010 11:39:05 -0500 Original-Received: from mail-bw0-f44.google.com ([209.85.214.44]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1PGaAx-0003uZ-B2 for 7367@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 11 Nov 2010 11:39:04 -0500 Original-Received: by bwz12 with SMTP id 12so2124502bwz.3 for <7367@debbugs.gnu.org>; Thu, 11 Nov 2010 08:43:49 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:from:to:cc:subject :in-reply-to:references:user-agent:date:message-id:mime-version :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=mRuXxTb5wIOtNtVYje8AccB+Y3qWVnQ1cjBx6X3uGWA=; b=QBBZZv1lWTigIkEtV7tomA1ZmW4NVseuysKPPFrpW+HjdC/L4CdJ8p+AC5jH+ovV5m PubYch7pGjhEVE6bUiONsX3hcJW65cggFFZgL+0WgDrqq220lO4aEkBcNFyb7FfyI3At /qpCGxrWaJHu0dxJ87xcqUdkwBJDJrFE1z850= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:references:user-agent:date :message-id:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=IobEai8axVbp4oGhVhIve65Ak4Yh6/lg+r85FpRdrp8T5puquorTmSG3AmnnyrW8F2 KWFuonBWIcsP+8efAQxXCAKBSXaSnEyIK2bImFmi9wLlRdAX7QgeTWW7GMBA56sjioGz Em+b4QhtlnjqVINkw1JCe1R1WNXxySAZNqCm0= Original-Received: by 10.204.113.195 with SMTP id b3mr1613033bkq.210.1289493828916; Thu, 11 Nov 2010 08:43:48 -0800 (PST) Original-Received: from localhost (176.119.broadband10.iol.cz [90.177.119.176]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 4sm1043731bki.13.2010.11.11.08.43.47 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Thu, 11 Nov 2010 08:43:47 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: (Drew Adams's message of "Wed, 10 Nov 2010 12:46:20 -0800") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.50 (gnu/linux) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list Resent-Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2010 11:40:03 -0500 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-BeenThere: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org List-Id: "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.bugs:41483 Archived-At: "Drew Adams" writes: [...] > Please restore the normal, helpful, user-friendly source-file change > logs that were in the author's file. Emacs users should be able to get > the info they need by consulting only the source code. They should not > need any Internet access, in particular. >=20=20 > This seems like just laziness on the part of Emacs development. > But is also an anti-user policy. [...] > Emacs source files contain lots of text such as `Todo list' that is less > important than change-log history. Users deserve better than telling > them to go search the Internet for change history. > > Change logs are not just for Emacs developers' internal use. > They are for users. They are neither. They're completely useless. Just to provide a different opinion: I never saw a useful `Change Log:' section in any of (quite a lot of) Elisp libraries I've seen (Emacs core or third party), so I definitely welcome their absence. It's mostly just noise, because the change descriptions alone are not very telling. I'm only interested in the kind of information you get from version control systems (i.e., commented diffs), not something like "Added feature foo" or "Fixed bug in bar". (I can see that a short summary of user-visible changes since the last version might be useful for third-party libraries, but that's obviously not what Drew has in mind here (just have a look at the humongous change logs in his own libraries :-))) FWIW, I also find `Todo:' more, not less, important than `Change Log:'. =C5=A0t=C4=9Bp=C3=A1n