From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Ingo Lohmar Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.bugs Subject: bug#22595: 25.1.50; Wishlist: There should be a way to list timers Date: Tue, 09 Feb 2016 18:13:31 +0100 Message-ID: <87mvr9hkn8.fsf@acer.localhost.com> References: <87oabrybgk.fsf@gnus.org> <83egcnqge3.fsf@gnu.org> <87k2mekaye.fsf@gnus.org> <87h9hiht4w.fsf@acer.localhost.com> <87bn7qarzs.fsf@gnus.org> <10585fb1-f262-4b56-98ab-3b6f627fd942@default> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1455038245 2233 80.91.229.3 (9 Feb 2016 17:17:25 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2016 17:17:25 +0000 (UTC) Cc: 22595@debbugs.gnu.org To: Drew Adams , Lars Ingebrigtsen Original-X-From: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Tue Feb 09 18:17:14 2016 Return-path: Envelope-to: geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1aTBub-0003Mq-P5 for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Tue, 09 Feb 2016 18:17:14 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:58515 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1aTBub-0005Oe-1F for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Tue, 09 Feb 2016 12:17:13 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:46791) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1aTBra-0000Mu-9b for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 09 Feb 2016 12:14:07 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1aTBrW-0007Ua-Un for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 09 Feb 2016 12:14:06 -0500 Original-Received: from debbugs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.43]:52889) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1aTBrW-0007UW-Py for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 09 Feb 2016 12:14:02 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-debbugs by debbugs.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.84) (envelope-from ) id 1aTBrW-0000Z1-Gv for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 09 Feb 2016 12:14:02 -0500 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Resent-From: Ingo Lohmar Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Tue, 09 Feb 2016 17:14:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 22595 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: fixed Original-Received: via spool by 22595-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B22595.14550380192131 (code B ref 22595); Tue, 09 Feb 2016 17:14:02 +0000 Original-Received: (at 22595) by debbugs.gnu.org; 9 Feb 2016 17:13:39 +0000 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:33797 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84) (envelope-from ) id 1aTBr9-0000YJ-4W for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 09 Feb 2016 12:13:39 -0500 Original-Received: from mail-wm0-f47.google.com ([74.125.82.47]:37179) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84) (envelope-from ) id 1aTBr8-0000Y7-Ed for 22595@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 09 Feb 2016 12:13:38 -0500 Original-Received: by mail-wm0-f47.google.com with SMTP id g62so32580045wme.0 for <22595@debbugs.gnu.org>; Tue, 09 Feb 2016 09:13:38 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:references:user-agent:date :message-id:mime-version:content-type; bh=uOPRZHE9GVMGwtRW9JEWR9zjg5qq1oXIHwux+Ed15Ec=; b=Yp9N7gTfA7BSKAAqP+9zo/uUff+BQbGtXHNJXVuGrbw1pKGthHMmUhRLWafnAscr8d sIeP5D7YF9x8J1CZT7+NRSGzRINWdfWc0YiSpBDswVnNobQBl66yJDbKT6PFDmeDCXox Kn+m18jxCKq+yUoKvMKjlx2VAduFZvvdFS9JFwrPOLnnffYOq9QrJnHrZpqfB9QEQAFO dHhnE/3HHEokSL8lPDx87OWtm36mEfFeQuNIQf9/BmLno5fx9Uv0tznFJiVgVuAgKTh5 rb1yg5lFx8JAOl+DimjYmdpVrTsnPRrZITEDYDBqZfB2ZHTN4J8U7+8OjG9kLhUqwkVC oqUg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:references :user-agent:date:message-id:mime-version:content-type; bh=uOPRZHE9GVMGwtRW9JEWR9zjg5qq1oXIHwux+Ed15Ec=; b=BQE6nSL5RsZoEiEfqiKxyLu6bSqT7Rofbpjm3G4S93H6B/7D7Sr3HKfng9etWoDXET uTFQfY9RvzLjTv4o51BHSoF05/dX/hzsv75Roc+zMaMVMrKglTo/pErdH8kVO2eTyM71 zrk4iHfAYWKucsOKOTd1zGbw2cF+/r2AzAsm7pmqjavApiseXsP4WDFUf3eAB6j1B0FY gb8Q/HENxWCTNBmO5ltRk7Yo4sH5i9gPKzdhuLb7NamFIfLmHPz4OMURhlMvlVQXdxTr PlLlVHDP30x237yOLSGPRqCl6sGdxMEYaqcFghAW/WiKtAC4TCPCKrEwX57ll2WQmTuP 5/Tg== X-Gm-Message-State: AG10YORLED4YTj8RZqzE8pmQfTIfZftOu5SI1FbRZ2AR0ljhHT88HwBuIBpVpA0TidY2LA== X-Received: by 10.194.109.231 with SMTP id hv7mr35904045wjb.46.1455038012948; Tue, 09 Feb 2016 09:13:32 -0800 (PST) Original-Received: from localhost (xdsl-195-14-207-244.netcologne.de. [195.14.207.244]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id w62sm18445349wmg.21.2016.02.09.09.13.31 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 09 Feb 2016 09:13:31 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <10585fb1-f262-4b56-98ab-3b6f627fd942@default> User-Agent: Notmuch/0.20.2+113~g6332e6e (http://notmuchmail.org) Emacs/25.0.50.6 (x86_64-pc-linux-gnu) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 208.118.235.43 X-BeenThere: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org List-Id: "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.bugs:112812 Archived-At: On Tue, Feb 09 2016 07:16 (-0800), Drew Adams wrote: > I'm with Lars on this one. What is an implementation detail from > one point of view, and for one user, can be a "user-level feature" > for another user. Agreed. > > Many Emacs users interact with Emacs at deeper levels, where a > text/overlay property is an object of concern, not just something > behind the scenes. Likewise for other objects: processes, timers, > whatever. Processes reference external entities that might be created by Emacs, but that are, partially or entirely, beyond Emacs' control. So there is a good reason to offer the user a UI to list and control them. > > And we do have UIs for working with overlays or text properties. > At least I do. Likewise, interacting with keymaps and font-lock. I am unfamiliar with those UIs, which are they? Using terminology that I am familiar with, we have "APIs" in the form of functions and variables dealing with overlays and text properties. But we do not have commands to produce a buffer listing of all overlays used in this buffer, with commands to delete some of them etc, or am I missing something fundamental? On this machine, 'M-x apropos overlay' does not show me anything close. > > No one is obliged to use a UI that provides easier access to such > things, but that access can be useful for some Emacs users. Some > Emacs users will never go near hexl mode, but for those who do, > it is useful. Not quite the same as features for examining entities (like timers) that only exist within Emacs, I would say. As I said in an answer to Lars, this is not a crusade to prevent the UI. I simply have not read a good argument yet why this additional code burden would be a good thing to have in Emacs core.