bug#58543: 29.0.50; The 'q' key is not shown by "C-h ?"

bug#58543: 29.0.50; The 'q' key is not shown by "C-h ?"

[Eli Zaretskii]

As Subject says: "C-h ?" doesn't show the 'q' key, it shows this
instead:

   M-x help-quick-or-quit 	Display the quick help buffer.

This is sub-optimal, I think, and will help users who need this "quick
help" less than it could be.

Thinking about it, perhaps 'q'; should be on the first line shown by
"C-h ?".


In GNU Emacs 29.0.50 (build 2070, i686-pc-mingw32) of 2022-10-15 built
 on HOME-C4E4A596F7
Repository revision: e185526d216e544a70b2be77b34b5cb5386762d1
Repository branch: master
Windowing system distributor 'Microsoft Corp.', version 5.1.2600
System Description: Microsoft Windows XP Service Pack 3 (v5.1.0.2600)

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bug#58543: 29.0.50; The 'q' key is not shown by "C-h ?"

[Lars Ingebrigtsen]

Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:

> As Subject says: "C-h ?" doesn't show the 'q' key, it shows this
> instead:
>
>    M-x help-quick-or-quit 	Display the quick help buffer.
>
> This is sub-optimal, I think, and will help users who need this "quick
> help" less than it could be.
>
> Thinking about it, perhaps 'q'; should be on the first line shown by
> "C-h ?".

Hm...  It's rather confusing all over now.  All the other commands after
`C-h ?' do the same as typing the commands directly.

That is, `C-h t' shows the Emacs tutorial, and `C-h ? t' does the same.

`C-h q' shows the quick help, but `C-h ? q' doesn't -- it just exits
`help-for-help'.

But the help-for-help says that it "Display the quick help buffer.",
which is only correct when you haven't `C-h ?' first.

So this is confusing on several different levels at the same time, and I
don't know what the best fix here would be.

Perhaps Philip of Stefan has some ideas; added to the CCs.

bug#58543: 29.0.50; The 'q' key is not shown by "C-h ?"

[Philip Kaludercic]

Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@gnus.org> writes:

> Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:
>
>> As Subject says: "C-h ?" doesn't show the 'q' key, it shows this
>> instead:
>>
>>    M-x help-quick-or-quit 	Display the quick help buffer.
>>
>> This is sub-optimal, I think, and will help users who need this "quick
>> help" less than it could be.
>>
>> Thinking about it, perhaps 'q'; should be on the first line shown by
>> "C-h ?".
>
> Hm...  It's rather confusing all over now.  All the other commands after
> `C-h ?' do the same as typing the commands directly.
>
> That is, `C-h t' shows the Emacs tutorial, and `C-h ? t' does the same.
>
> `C-h q' shows the quick help, but `C-h ? q' doesn't -- it just exits
> `help-for-help'.
>
> But the help-for-help says that it "Display the quick help buffer.",
> which is only correct when you haven't `C-h ?' first.
>
> So this is confusing on several different levels at the same time, and I
> don't know what the best fix here would be.

It was probably wrong to add `help-quick-or-quit' to C-h ? in the first
place.  My proposal to bind C-h q to `help-quick-or-quit' was that "C-h
q" had no effect *outside of* the Metahelp buffer.  But of course, in
the Metahelp buffer "q" does have an effect, that overrides
`help-quick-or-quit'.  My guess is that that is the reason why the
binding is displayed using M-x.

I would therefore remove entry from the "(make-help-screen
help-for-help" block, and consider some other place to mention the quick
help buffer.

bug#58543: 29.0.50; The 'q' key is not shown by "C-h ?"

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Philip Kaludercic <philipk@posteo.net>
> Cc: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org>,  58543@debbugs.gnu.org,  Stefan Kangas
>  <stefankangas@gmail.com>
> Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2022 10:21:05 +0000
> 
> I would therefore remove entry from the "(make-help-screen
> help-for-help" block, and consider some other place to mention the quick
> help buffer.

How about mentioning it in the "C-h" prompt itself?

bug#58543: 29.0.50; The 'q' key is not shown by "C-h ?"

[Philip Kaludercic]

Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:

>> From: Philip Kaludercic <philipk@posteo.net>
>> Cc: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org>,  58543@debbugs.gnu.org,  Stefan Kangas
>>  <stefankangas@gmail.com>
>> Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2022 10:21:05 +0000
>> 
>> I would therefore remove entry from the "(make-help-screen
>> help-for-help" block, and consider some other place to mention the quick
>> help buffer.
>
> How about mentioning it in the "C-h" prompt itself?

Do you mean the "C-h (Type ? for further options)-" prompt?

One place I thought could make sense would be the
`startup-echo-area-message' prompt, but that doesn't look like it has
enough space.

bug#58543: 29.0.50; The 'q' key is not shown by "C-h ?"

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Philip Kaludercic <philipk@posteo.net>
> Cc: larsi@gnus.org,  58543@debbugs.gnu.org,  stefankangas@gmail.com
> Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2022 11:11:20 +0000
> 
> Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:
> 
> >> From: Philip Kaludercic <philipk@posteo.net>
> >> Cc: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org>,  58543@debbugs.gnu.org,  Stefan Kangas
> >>  <stefankangas@gmail.com>
> >> Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2022 10:21:05 +0000
> >> 
> >> I would therefore remove entry from the "(make-help-screen
> >> help-for-help" block, and consider some other place to mention the quick
> >> help buffer.
> >
> > How about mentioning it in the "C-h" prompt itself?
> 
> Do you mean the "C-h (Type ? for further options)-" prompt?

Yes.  Make it say

  C-h (Type ? for further options, q for quick help)-

or somesuch.

bug#58543: 29.0.50; The 'q' key is not shown by "C-h ?"

[Stefan Kangas]

Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:

>   C-h (Type ? for further options, q for quick help)-
>
> or somesuch.

This is a nit, but is it just me that finds it confusing that the "-" is
all the way to the right?

IOW, shouldn't it say something like:

    C-h-  (Type ? for further options, q for quick help)

Or now that we have the `help-key-binding' maybe even

    C-h-  [? further options, q quick help]

bug#58543: 29.0.50; The 'q' key is not shown by "C-h ?"

[Philip Kaludercic]

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Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:

>> From: Philip Kaludercic <philipk@posteo.net>
>> Cc: larsi@gnus.org,  58543@debbugs.gnu.org,  stefankangas@gmail.com
>> Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2022 11:11:20 +0000
>> 
>> Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:
>> 
>> >> From: Philip Kaludercic <philipk@posteo.net>
>> >> Cc: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org>,  58543@debbugs.gnu.org,  Stefan Kangas
>> >>  <stefankangas@gmail.com>
>> >> Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2022 10:21:05 +0000
>> >> 
>> >> I would therefore remove entry from the "(make-help-screen
>> >> help-for-help" block, and consider some other place to mention the quick
>> >> help buffer.
>> >
>> > How about mentioning it in the "C-h" prompt itself?
>> 
>> Do you mean the "C-h (Type ? for further options)-" prompt?
>
> Yes.  Make it say
>
>   C-h (Type ? for further options, q for quick help)-
>
> or somesuch.

That sounds good.  How about this patch:


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From 8db3c0a25bf88f8e4669fd7e2babc2ff8f5c98b2 Mon Sep 17 00:00:00 2001
From: Philip Kaludercic <philipk@posteo.net>
Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2022 15:38:28 +0200
Subject: [PATCH] * src/keyboard.c (echo_add_key): Mention quick-help

---
 src/keyboard.c | 2 +-
 1 file changed, 1 insertion(+), 1 deletion(-)

diff --git a/src/keyboard.c b/src/keyboard.c
index 8ab4a451b4..8386b599c3 100644
--- a/src/keyboard.c
+++ b/src/keyboard.c
@@ -503,7 +503,7 @@ echo_add_key (Lisp_Object c)
   if ((NILP (echo_string) || SCHARS (echo_string) == 0)
       && help_char_p (c))
     {
-      AUTO_STRING (str, " (Type ? for further options)");
+      AUTO_STRING (str, " (Type ? for further options, q for quick help)");
       AUTO_LIST2 (props, Qface, Qhelp_key_binding);
       Fadd_text_properties (make_fixnum (7), make_fixnum (8), props, str);
       new_string = concat2 (new_string, str);
-- 
2.37.3


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Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@gmail.com> writes:

> Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:
>
>>   C-h (Type ? for further options, q for quick help)-
>>
>> or somesuch.
>
> This is a nit, but is it just me that finds it confusing that the "-" is
> all the way to the right?
>
> IOW, shouldn't it say something like:
>
>     C-h-  (Type ? for further options, q for quick help)
>
> Or now that we have the `help-key-binding' maybe even
>
>     C-h-  [? further options, q quick help]

Ah, I didn't understand what the trailing dash was supposed to signify
so this looks like a good idea.

bug#58543: 29.0.50; The 'q' key is not shown by "C-h ?"

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Philip Kaludercic <philipk@posteo.net>
> Cc: larsi@gnus.org,  58543@debbugs.gnu.org,  stefankangas@gmail.com
> Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2022 13:39:12 +0000
> 
> Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:
> 
> >> > How about mentioning it in the "C-h" prompt itself?
> >> 
> >> Do you mean the "C-h (Type ? for further options)-" prompt?
> >
> > Yes.  Make it say
> >
> >   C-h (Type ? for further options, q for quick help)-
> >
> > or somesuch.
> 
> That sounds good.  How about this patch:

LGTM, but please wait for others to comment.  After all, I'm not the
main audience for this stuff ;-)

bug#58543: 29.0.50; The 'q' key is not shown by "C-h ?"

[Lars Ingebrigtsen]

Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:

> LGTM, but please wait for others to comment.  

Makes sense to me.

> After all, I'm not the main audience for this stuff ;-)

Me neither.

bug#58543: 29.0.50; The 'q' key is not shown by "C-h ?"

[Philip Kaludercic]

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Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:

>> From: Philip Kaludercic <philipk@posteo.net>
>> Cc: larsi@gnus.org,  58543@debbugs.gnu.org,  stefankangas@gmail.com
>> Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2022 13:39:12 +0000
>> 
>> Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:
>> 
>> >> > How about mentioning it in the "C-h" prompt itself?
>> >> 
>> >> Do you mean the "C-h (Type ? for further options)-" prompt?
>> >
>> > Yes.  Make it say
>> >
>> >   C-h (Type ? for further options, q for quick help)-
>> >
>> > or somesuch.
>> 
>> That sounds good.  How about this patch:
>
> LGTM, but please wait for others to comment.  After all, I'm not the
> main audience for this stuff ;-)

Will do.

Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@gnus.org> writes:

> Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:
>
>> LGTM, but please wait for others to comment.  
>
> Makes sense to me.
>
>> After all, I'm not the main audience for this stuff ;-)
>
> Me neither.

Looks like nobody will be using the feature :')

Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@gmail.com> writes:

> Philip Kaludercic <philipk@posteo.net> writes:
>
>> diff --git a/src/keyboard.c b/src/keyboard.c
>> index 8ab4a451b4..8386b599c3 100644
>> --- a/src/keyboard.c
>> +++ b/src/keyboard.c
>> @@ -503,7 +503,7 @@ echo_add_key (Lisp_Object c)
>>    if ((NILP (echo_string) || SCHARS (echo_string) == 0)
>>        && help_char_p (c))
>>      {
>> -      AUTO_STRING (str, " (Type ? for further options)");
>> +      AUTO_STRING (str, " (Type ? for further options, q for quick help)");
>>        AUTO_LIST2 (props, Qface, Qhelp_key_binding);
>>        Fadd_text_properties (make_fixnum (7), make_fixnum (8), props, str);
>
> Also add the text property to the "q" here.  Something like:
>
>     Fadd_text_properties (make_fixnum (30), make_fixnum (31), props,
> str);

You're right, I've added it and it does the right thing:


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From c25e78d8020364e1ecae795ffb79b1612bdc0d0b Mon Sep 17 00:00:00 2001
From: Philip Kaludercic <philipk@posteo.net>
Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2022 00:36:06 +0200
Subject: [PATCH] * src/keyboard.c (echo_add_key): Mention quick-help

---
 src/keyboard.c | 4 +++-
 1 file changed, 3 insertions(+), 1 deletion(-)

diff --git a/src/keyboard.c b/src/keyboard.c
index 8ab4a451b4..224512bfc9 100644
--- a/src/keyboard.c
+++ b/src/keyboard.c
@@ -503,9 +503,11 @@ echo_add_key (Lisp_Object c)
   if ((NILP (echo_string) || SCHARS (echo_string) == 0)
       && help_char_p (c))
     {
-      AUTO_STRING (str, " (Type ? for further options)");
+      AUTO_STRING (str, " (Type ? for further options, q for quick help)");
       AUTO_LIST2 (props, Qface, Qhelp_key_binding);
       Fadd_text_properties (make_fixnum (7), make_fixnum (8), props, str);
+      Fadd_text_properties (make_fixnum (30), make_fixnum (31), props,
+str);
       new_string = concat2 (new_string, str);
     }
 
-- 
2.37.3

bug#58543: 29.0.50; The 'q' key is not shown by "C-h ?"

[Philip Kaludercic]

Philip Kaludercic <philipk@posteo.net> writes:

> Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:
>
>>> From: Philip Kaludercic <philipk@posteo.net>
>>> Cc: larsi@gnus.org,  58543@debbugs.gnu.org,  stefankangas@gmail.com
>>> Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2022 13:39:12 +0000
>>> 
>>> Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:
>>> 
>>> >> > How about mentioning it in the "C-h" prompt itself?
>>> >> 
>>> >> Do you mean the "C-h (Type ? for further options)-" prompt?
>>> >
>>> > Yes.  Make it say
>>> >
>>> >   C-h (Type ? for further options, q for quick help)-
>>> >
>>> > or somesuch.
>>> 
>>> That sounds good.  How about this patch:
>>
>> LGTM, but please wait for others to comment.  After all, I'm not the
>> main audience for this stuff ;-)
>
> Will do.

The patch has been pushed a while ago, so I am closing the report.

bug#58543: 29.0.50; The 'q' key is not shown by "C-h ?"

[Stefan Kangas]

Philip Kaludercic <philipk@posteo.net> writes:

> diff --git a/src/keyboard.c b/src/keyboard.c
> index 8ab4a451b4..8386b599c3 100644
> --- a/src/keyboard.c
> +++ b/src/keyboard.c
> @@ -503,7 +503,7 @@ echo_add_key (Lisp_Object c)
>    if ((NILP (echo_string) || SCHARS (echo_string) == 0)
>        && help_char_p (c))
>      {
> -      AUTO_STRING (str, " (Type ? for further options)");
> +      AUTO_STRING (str, " (Type ? for further options, q for quick help)");
>        AUTO_LIST2 (props, Qface, Qhelp_key_binding);
>        Fadd_text_properties (make_fixnum (7), make_fixnum (8), props, str);

Also add the text property to the "q" here.  Something like:

    Fadd_text_properties (make_fixnum (30), make_fixnum (31), props, str);