From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: Marcin Borkowski Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.bugs Subject: bug#32578: Remove "joke" from drag events documentation Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2018 08:08:24 +0200 Message-ID: <87ftyvjcfb.fsf@mbork.pl> References: <87h8jc2ue4.fsf@mbork.pl> <87sh2w5m56.fsf@yandex.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: blaine.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Trace: blaine.gmane.org 1535695691 27051 195.159.176.226 (31 Aug 2018 06:08:11 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@blaine.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2018 06:08:11 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: mu4e 1.1.0; emacs 27.0.50 Cc: m43cap@yandex.com, 32578@debbugs.gnu.org To: Chris Shea Original-X-From: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Fri Aug 31 08:08:07 2018 Return-path: Envelope-to: geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by blaine.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fvcbG-0006uj-SQ for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Fri, 31 Aug 2018 08:08:07 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:52078 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fvcdN-0002In-4m for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Fri, 31 Aug 2018 02:10:17 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:59469) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fvcdB-0002Gt-6O for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 31 Aug 2018 02:10:06 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fvcd8-0008Ip-17 for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 31 Aug 2018 02:10:05 -0400 Original-Received: from debbugs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.43]:34661) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fvcd7-0008Ih-Sr for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 31 Aug 2018 02:10:01 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-debbugs by debbugs.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fvcd7-0005Ua-Lu for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 31 Aug 2018 02:10:01 -0400 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Resent-From: Marcin Borkowski Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2018 06:10:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 32578 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: patch Original-Received: via spool by 32578-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B32578.153569576821064 (code B ref 32578); Fri, 31 Aug 2018 06:10:01 +0000 Original-Received: (at 32578) by debbugs.gnu.org; 31 Aug 2018 06:09:28 +0000 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:39678 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fvcca-0005Tg-7k for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 31 Aug 2018 02:09:28 -0400 Original-Received: from mail.mojserwer.eu ([195.110.48.8]:54524) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fvccY-0005TX-1o for 32578@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 31 Aug 2018 02:09:26 -0400 Original-Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.mojserwer.eu (Postfix) with ESMTP id C9FA1E6559; Fri, 31 Aug 2018 08:09:23 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at mail.mojserwer.eu Original-Received: from mail.mojserwer.eu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.mojserwer.eu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dw3nXXDwnR9P; Fri, 31 Aug 2018 08:09:18 +0200 (CEST) Original-Received: from localhost (188.47.48.111.ipv4.supernova.orange.pl [188.47.48.111]) by mail.mojserwer.eu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 0A3EFE6530; Fri, 31 Aug 2018 08:09:18 +0200 (CEST) In-reply-to: X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 208.118.235.43 X-BeenThere: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org List-Id: "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "bug-gnu-emacs" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.bugs:149910 Archived-At: On 2018-08-30, at 15:51, Chris Shea wrote: > On Thu, Aug 30, 2018 at 3:50 AM Colin Baxter wrote: > >> >>>>> Marcin Borkowski writes: >> >> > On 2018-08-29, at 19:29, Chris Shea wrote: >> >> >> Hello, >> >> >> >> This patch removes an unnecessary and unwelcoming joke from the >> >> drag events documentation. Documentation should be informative >> >> and inclusive. >> >> > I'm a bit on the fence about this. On the one hand, I remember >> > seeing the joke some time ago and finding it hilarious. On the >> > other hand, I remember feeling good about removing other jokes >> > from Emacs sources, which were _really_ offensive. This one seems >> > to be far, far from offensive anyway, and if anyone feels offended >> > by this, they probably well deserve it. Disclosure: I know (and >> > often tell myself) jokes about groups of people _I_ belong to >> > which are probably much more "offensive" than this one (though >> > obviously I may be biased). I can provide a sample on request. >> >> > I don't see how the relevant portion can be seen as not >> > informative. >> >> > BTW, I am now coauthoring a book on pretty advanced mathematics >> > (nonlinear analysis), and we try to put quite a lot of jokes into >> > it. Well-placed jokes do not make a book/documentation less >> > informative, but more pleasant to read. (Unfortunately, there is >> > nothing about "drag events" in the book.) >> >> > If I were to made a decision, I would probably (a bit reluctantly, >> > but still) leave it, so that Emacs does not succumb to the idiocy >> > called "political correctness". >> >> > Best, >> >> > -- Marcin Borkowski http://mbork.pl >> >> I agree with Marcin's comments and would add that a joke is hardly a >> bug. Perhaps the original poster should place the suggestion elsewhere, >> maybe emacs.devel? >> >> Best wishes >> > > To Marcin's points, I didn't bring up offensiveness, and what kinds of "Unwelcoming" seemed to me a softer version of "offensive". Sorry if I'm mistaken, I'm not a native English speaker. > jokes you tell among your friends doesn't seem relevant. Would your Quite the opposite: if I'm not bothered by this joke, and I'm bothered by similarly offensive/unwelcoming jokes about me and/or groups of people I belong to, someone could argue that I have double standards. Such an argument need not be correct in general, but it might make people ignore my email. > reasoning be the same if the diff was the other way? Would you be arguing > to add this joke in because you deem it inoffensive? That it adds > information to the documentation? That the documentation for a text editor > is the appropriate place to make the effort to add a joke (a joke which > operates merely on the level of "this one word looks like this other word") > as a bulwark against "political correctness"? As I mentioned, I'm coauthoring a "serious" book on "serious" mathematics. Many a commit exists for the purpose of adding jokes (though not ones about drag events), pop culture references etc. Though it does not add _information_, it adds _value_. And I don't see how docs for a text editor might be inappropriate place for jokes/puns (unless they make the docs difficult to understand for a non-native ENglish speaker, but this is another story). Even if the reason was not "as a bulwark against 'political correctness'" (which would strengthen the argument in my book), I still think the effort would be worth it. Best, -- Marcin Borkowski http://mbork.pl