bug#44935: Emacs inserts hardwired org-agenda-files variable, overwriting user options

bug#44935: Emacs inserts hardwired org-agenda-files variable, overwriting user options

[daniela-spit]

I have identified a problem.  Let a user set the files to be used for
Org Agenda in .emacs as follows, and consider the situation when the
file writing.rcl.org does not exist.

(setq org-agenda-files
   '("~/02histr/gadmin/writing.rcl.org"
     "~/02histr/gadmin/meeting.rcl.org"
     "~/02histr/gadmin/household.rcl.org"))

Emacs demands that the file writing.rcl.org be removed from org-agenda-files.
Then Emacs sabotages the user's settings by hardwiring org-agenda-files at the
end of the file .emacs by inserting:

(custom-set-variables
 ;; custom-set-variables was added by Custom.
 ;; If you edit it by hand, you could mess it up, so be careful.
 ;; Your init file should contain only one such instance.
 ;; If there is more than one, they won't work right.
 '(org-agenda-files
   '("~/02histr/gadmin/meeting.rcl.org" "~/02histr/gadmin/household.rcl.org")))

This should be considered a bug.

Dani

bug#44935: Emacs inserts hardwired org-agenda-files variable, overwriting user options

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: daniela-spit@gmx.it
> Date: Sat, 28 Nov 2020 22:34:07 +0100
> 
> I have identified a problem.  Let a user set the files to be used for
> Org Agenda in .emacs as follows, and consider the situation when the
> file writing.rcl.org does not exist.
> 
> (setq org-agenda-files
>    '("~/02histr/gadmin/writing.rcl.org"
>      "~/02histr/gadmin/meeting.rcl.org"
>      "~/02histr/gadmin/household.rcl.org"))
> 
> Emacs demands that the file writing.rcl.org be removed from org-agenda-files.
> Then Emacs sabotages the user's settings by hardwiring org-agenda-files at the
> end of the file .emacs by inserting:
> 
> (custom-set-variables
>  ;; custom-set-variables was added by Custom.
>  ;; If you edit it by hand, you could mess it up, so be careful.
>  ;; Your init file should contain only one such instance.
>  ;; If there is more than one, they won't work right.
>  '(org-agenda-files
>    '("~/02histr/gadmin/meeting.rcl.org" "~/02histr/gadmin/household.rcl.org")))
> 
> This should be considered a bug.

Shouldn't this be reported to the Org developers?

bug#44935: Emacs inserts hardwired org-agenda-files variable, overwriting user options

[daniela-spit]

> Sent: Sunday, November 29, 2020 at 4:07 PM
> From: "Eli Zaretskii" <eliz@gnu.org>
> To: daniela-spit@gmx.it
> Cc: 44935@debbugs.gnu.org
> Subject: bug#44935: Emacs inserts hardwired org-agenda-files variable, overwriting user options
>
> > From: daniela-spit@gmx.it
> > Date: Sat, 28 Nov 2020 22:34:07 +0100
> >
> > I have identified a problem.  Let a user set the files to be used for
> > Org Agenda in .emacs as follows, and consider the situation when the
> > file writing.rcl.org does not exist.
> >
> > (setq org-agenda-files
> >    '("~/02histr/gadmin/writing.rcl.org"
> >      "~/02histr/gadmin/meeting.rcl.org"
> >      "~/02histr/gadmin/household.rcl.org"))
> >
> > Emacs demands that the file writing.rcl.org be removed from org-agenda-files.
> > Then Emacs sabotages the user's settings by hardwiring org-agenda-files at the
> > end of the file .emacs by inserting:
> >
> > (custom-set-variables
> >  ;; custom-set-variables was added by Custom.
> >  ;; If you edit it by hand, you could mess it up, so be careful.
> >  ;; Your init file should contain only one such instance.
> >  ;; If there is more than one, they won't work right.
> >  '(org-agenda-files
> >    '("~/02histr/gadmin/meeting.rcl.org" "~/02histr/gadmin/household.rcl.org")))
> >
> > This should be considered a bug.
>
> Shouldn't this be reported to the Org developers?

What mailing should I use to report it to Org Developers?

>
>

bug#44935: Emacs inserts hardwired org-agenda-files variable, overwriting user options

[Basil L. Contovounesios]

daniela-spit@gmx.it writes:

>> Sent: Sunday, November 29, 2020 at 4:07 PM
>> From: "Eli Zaretskii" <eliz@gnu.org>
>> To: daniela-spit@gmx.it
>> Cc: 44935@debbugs.gnu.org
>> Subject: bug#44935: Emacs inserts hardwired org-agenda-files variable, overwriting user options
>>
>> Shouldn't this be reported to the Org developers?
>
> What mailing should I use to report it to Org Developers?

M-x org-submit-bug-report RET, which mails emacs-orgmode@gnu.org.

See also (info "(org) Feedback") in Emacs, or
https://orgmode.org/manual/Feedback.html on the web,
and https://orgmode.org/community.html.

Thanks,

-- 
Basil

bug#44935: Emacs inserts hardwired org-agenda-files variable, overwriting user options

[daniela-spit]

> Sent: Sunday, November 29, 2020 at 4:37 PM
> From: "Basil L. Contovounesios" <contovob@tcd.ie>
> To: daniela-spit@gmx.it
> Cc: "Eli Zaretskii" <eliz@gnu.org>, 44935@debbugs.gnu.org
> Subject: Re: bug#44935: Emacs inserts hardwired org-agenda-files variable, overwriting user options
>
> daniela-spit@gmx.it writes:
>
> >> Sent: Sunday, November 29, 2020 at 4:07 PM
> >> From: "Eli Zaretskii" <eliz@gnu.org>
> >> To: daniela-spit@gmx.it
> >> Cc: 44935@debbugs.gnu.org
> >> Subject: bug#44935: Emacs inserts hardwired org-agenda-files variable, overwriting user options
> >>
> >> Shouldn't this be reported to the Org developers?
> >
> > What mailing should I use to report it to Org Developers?
>
> M-x org-submit-bug-report RET, which mails emacs-orgmode@gnu.org.

Thank you Basil.

> See also (info "(org) Feedback") in Emacs, or
> https://orgmode.org/manual/Feedback.html on the web,
> and https://orgmode.org/community.html.
>
> Thanks,
>
> --
> Basil
>

bug#44935: Emacs inserts hardwired org-agenda-files variable, overwriting user options

[daniela-spit]

Correct, everything tells you it is part of Emacs.  Then one sends a report and people
start sending in in a long winded road to find the appropriate channel.

You look at "Emacs Asking for help" and "Emacs Reporting bugs" and you get only two things
help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org and bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org.  Have been following discussions here
and people herd together telling others they are doing everything backwards. And insisting
everything is fine, makes serious people not happy at all.  I do not want to hurt anyone,
but there exists a wall between maintainers and users who basically use Gnu Tools to do
something else.

> Sent: Sunday, November 29, 2020 at 5:29 PM
> From: "Jean Louis" <bugs@gnu.support>
> To: "Eli Zaretskii" <eliz@gnu.org>
> Cc: daniela-spit@gmx.it, 44935@debbugs.gnu.org
> Subject: Re: bug#44935: Emacs inserts hardwired org-agenda-files variable, overwriting user options
>
> * Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> [2020-11-29 18:08]:
> > Shouldn't this be reported to the Org developers?
>
> We have discussed that Org is part of Emacs and users shall be at all
> time welcome to report their bugs and pointers can be made how to
> closer report to Org mailing list. It makes it confusing to users, and
> is not logical. Org is part of Emacs so it is Emacs bug.
>
> While there is pointer under Org menu how to report the bug, it is not
> as obvious as "Help - Report Bug". So sometimes Org bugs will arrive
> here.
>
> Org bugs should be then simply forwarded to mailing list or tagged as
> being Org so that they may be picked up by mailing list.
>
> I find this more mailing list manager job to properly forward bugs.
>
> For Org one can submit {M-x org-submit-bug-report RET}
>
> For this bug, I do not think it is bug. Isn't it for all variables
> like that that when they are customized by user on top of the init
> file that they customization during the session will overwrite the
> customizations set by user on top of the init file?
>
> If this is so how I think, then users who do not want Emacs to
> overwrite their customization in init file should not use the
> customize for those variables. Then the user's customization will take
> effect.
>
> I do not see differences here with org-agenda.
>
> Are there any?
>

bug#44935: Emacs inserts hardwired org-agenda-files variable, overwriting user options

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Date: Sun, 29 Nov 2020 19:29:18 +0300
> From: Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support>
> Cc: daniela-spit@gmx.it, 44935@debbugs.gnu.org
> 
> * Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> [2020-11-29 18:08]:
> > Shouldn't this be reported to the Org developers?
> 
> We have discussed that Org is part of Emacs and users shall be at all
> time welcome to report their bugs and pointers can be made how to
> closer report to Org mailing list. It makes it confusing to users, and
> is not logical. Org is part of Emacs so it is Emacs bug.

In rare cases that users become confused, we gently tell them to
report to the Org developers.  Like in this case.  It's not a big
deal.

Org is a separate project with a separate mailing list and issue
tracker.  We just _distroibute_ it as part of Emacs.  That's not the
same as being an integral part of the project.

> I find this more mailing list manager job to properly forward bugs.

There is no manager here that forwards bugs.

bug#44935: Emacs inserts hardwired org-agenda-files variable, overwriting user options

[Glenn Morris]

Eli Zaretskii wrote:

> In rare cases that users become confused, we gently tell them to
> report to the Org developers.

I think it's better all round to just reassign the bug to the "org-mode"
package.

> There is no manager here that forwards bugs.

And yet, all the messages in this thread (save the first) are already on
the Org mailing list...

bug#44935: Emacs inserts hardwired org-agenda-files variable, overwriting user options

[daniela-spit]

> Sent: Sunday, November 29, 2020 at 6:22 PM
> From: "Jean Louis" <bugs@gnu.support>
> To: daniela-spit@gmx.it
> Cc: "Eli Zaretskii" <eliz@gnu.org>, 44935@debbugs.gnu.org
> Subject: Re: bug#44935: Emacs inserts hardwired org-agenda-files variable, overwriting user options
>
> * daniela-spit@gmx.it <daniela-spit@gmx.it> [2020-11-29 20:02]:
> > Correct, everything tells you it is part of Emacs.  Then one sends a report and people
> > start sending in in a long winded road to find the appropriate
> > channel.
>
> We can consider those features of reporting bugs still in
> development. I never knew since recently that there are various
> reporting bug functions. You can discover it easier by using
> completion such as ivy package.

For new users? Will never happen. Put the mailing lists in the damn webpage,
categorising them if necessary, but having them so anybody can see them.
Furthermore, Org is so integrated in Emacs that a large part of the user
community would not be in a position to determine whether it is a problem
of Emacs or Org.

> There is:
>
> - report-calc-bug
> - calc-report-bug
> - c-submit-bug-report
> - TeX-submit-bug-report
> - org and Emacs maybe others
>
> > You look at "Emacs Asking for help" and "Emacs Reporting bugs" and you get only two things
> > help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org and bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org.  Have been following discussions here
> > and people herd together telling others they are doing everything backwards. And insisting
> > everything is fine, makes serious people not happy at all.  I do not want to hurt anyone,
> > but there exists a wall between maintainers and users who basically use Gnu Tools to do
> > something else.
>
> Users could assign to themselves specific level such as Beginner,
> Intermediate, Advance and God.

God does not exist, get used to it!  Look, if you put the various lists there,
people would use them.  Making things difficult only wakes people give Emacs the
finger rather than concluding the developers are smart.  Does this not bother
Gnu Admins?

> Beginner would be welcomed to submit bugs and kindly explained that
> there exists specialized mailing list with more people able to help
> it.
>
> Intermediate user would be simply told to go somewhere else.
>
> Advanced user would be anyway submitting patches and be active in
> Emacs development, so there would be no problem with this level.
>
> God would never tell anything to anybody just as what is usual that
> God does, I guess M-x something...

As long as developers continue thinking they are gods. they will get
no respect.  Grow up and do it quick!

bug#44935: Emacs inserts hardwired org-agenda-files variable, overwriting user options

[daniela-spit]

> Sent: Sunday, November 29, 2020 at 6:39 PM
> From: "Glenn Morris" <rgm@gnu.org>
> To: "Eli Zaretskii" <eliz@gnu.org>
> Cc: "Jean Louis" <bugs@gnu.support>, 44935@debbugs.gnu.org, daniela-spit@gmx.it
> Subject: Re: bug#44935: Emacs inserts hardwired org-agenda-files variable, overwriting user options
>
> Eli Zaretskii wrote:
>
> > In rare cases that users become confused, we gently tell them to
> > report to the Org developers.

So now the maintainer starts telling users that they are rare cases
for being confused.  How can any woman stand this guy!!! Impossible.

> I think it's better all round to just reassign the bug to the "org-mode"
> package.
>
> > There is no manager here that forwards bugs.
>
> And yet, all the messages in this thread (save the first) are already on
> the Org mailing list...
>

bug#44935: Emacs inserts hardwired org-agenda-files variable, overwriting user options

[daniela-spit]

> Sent: Sunday, November 29, 2020 at 6:22 PM
> From: "Jean Louis" <bugs@gnu.support>
> To: daniela-spit@gmx.it
> Cc: "Eli Zaretskii" <eliz@gnu.org>, 44935@debbugs.gnu.org
> Subject: Re: bug#44935: Emacs inserts hardwired org-agenda-files variable, overwriting user options
>
> * daniela-spit@gmx.it <daniela-spit@gmx.it> [2020-11-29 20:02]:
> > Correct, everything tells you it is part of Emacs.  Then one sends a report and people
> > start sending in in a long winded road to find the appropriate
> > channel.
>
> We can consider those features of reporting bugs still in
> development. I never knew since recently that there are various
> reporting bug functions. You can discover it easier by using
> completion such as ivy package.

Still in development?  How much thinking do people have to do
for this.  I can make 34 mailing lists in a few hours!

> There is:
>
> - report-calc-bug
> - calc-report-bug
> - c-submit-bug-report
> - TeX-submit-bug-report
> - org and Emacs maybe others
>
> > You look at "Emacs Asking for help" and "Emacs Reporting bugs" and you get only two things
> > help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org and bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org.  Have been following discussions here
> > and people herd together telling others they are doing everything backwards. And insisting
> > everything is fine, makes serious people not happy at all.  I do not want to hurt anyone,
> > but there exists a wall between maintainers and users who basically use Gnu Tools to do
> > something else.
>
> Users could assign to themselves specific level such as Beginner,
> Intermediate, Advance and God.
>
> Beginner would be welcomed to submit bugs and kindly explained that
> there exists specialized mailing list with more people able to help
> it.
>
> Intermediate user would be simply told to go somewhere else.
>
> Advanced user would be anyway submitting patches and be active in
> Emacs development, so there would be no problem with this level.
>
> God would never tell anything to anybody just as what is usual that
> God does, I guess M-x something...
>
>

bug#44935: Emacs inserts hardwired org-agenda-files variable, overwriting user options

[Lars Ingebrigtsen]

daniela-spit@gmx.it writes:

> So now the maintainer starts telling users that they are rare cases
> for being confused.  How can any woman stand this guy!!! Impossible.

I'm closing this bug report.  If there's anything more to be done here,
please report the bug to the Org maintainers.

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no