From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Michael Heerdegen Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.bugs Subject: bug#52290: 28.0.90; Undocumented generalized variables Date: Sun, 05 Dec 2021 17:17:12 +0100 Message-ID: <878rwzauwn.fsf@web.de> References: <5d87e4ab47875790076e932351fe8f25@webmail.orcon.net.nz> <87ilw3vnp7.fsf@gnus.org> <87bl1v4xxu.fsf@web.de> <87r1aru7xo.fsf@gnus.org> <87ee6rbxfb.fsf@web.de> <87ilw3u5j8.fsf@gnus.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="27570"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/29.0.50 (gnu/linux) Cc: Phil Sainty , 52290@debbugs.gnu.org, Stefan Monnier To: Lars Ingebrigtsen Original-X-From: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sun Dec 05 19:08:54 2021 Return-path: Envelope-to: geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1mtvwT-00070t-SY for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org; 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Sun, 05 Dec 2021 17:17:14 +0100 In-Reply-To: <87ilw3u5j8.fsf@gnus.org> (Lars Ingebrigtsen's message of "Sun, 05 Dec 2021 03:52:43 +0100") X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:Y0q2Y0N1rcxyhOXKJL+fpIB8S2SCb5wRyExzbh/9ZALS/ns6LwI I3+raJ/4B5Kng4lMry3Ho7grHiufAeaFO+HLMpbmrN2wxU7tDNwqrhI7ZPtVOQk481cvubc In8kQzAq9sF2oo8ZkXosjdc+t7DjSuG5KpOSrc7LbjG4HTNoimtM4A3JM0fEr4lTz/EOjCg uzyeaccs9Eya2aywsemWA== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:MLydP7P0knQ=:ZcqGMgvPSufRGWtb2eMLSb tT5WobHg47y62Z9gbL9rwu/kcTucHS7XnuDNZ5B+CYsq332bqm4pMN8G1vlCBveQOwP0rlEF2 tV2VMI26T7p5L5hQPOtNdKVbM11EZ6PEZiCVn5Z6+SFZxn4OJQ7dMsGATO7eplg6v6V3TNceB 0FF6cYYkEN+Z2K5M8+ahDgwYepnuc1qFgia5kwTgaS9LVA1/l92oiJSF/zwyZMW8st7ByI9aF JHbXofN6SOlFen72rlmG5BDg4MWXqeCR5NKdPVxI6LDLMLU8xg/yomAw5PU5mMrsZpJ/Q0uLn PQ4W7PMHiGaP+jZ71bM6zL7onla+ENhvHiyCLEc5IBH73b5qOO/oSt4pvtQCskWNHIPw1V1K+ LeNlAz/HL5swaj6SK/GkJHHHPKLUmeyY7uVDnoq/1j3ocm8OvIpMMTzt5dXVTtcxZm65UVBS5 oiiI344tMnMCRhDSYMCmK8gDpQ5+qFLsMfpurV8dInkAwvulnKRdsTh63+r6NlPgF7+Shp/80 FW0Z2pn69rGraPa4arSqFsF/p1fq30TkqEdco07NrcleqdNMN/VzlPOMu8e2YKCq71VqW08gs U7lcHBRjuLo+kuLURlDVLxsmfcLKAzl6UrEapbn8Nz8OIT2PCXM1SbEPO9flsnV/g3C/1r/T+ T+L6+CA0zjfowYEB1T47lgVf7znXhEITVPpZkLofbtUwZQSoX7R2OA4fRRICmhvnZMwbnHOdG 3XcissTNeB6u3WihZBS79ot1V9NnhsH0yzu34nBwpY5dXGF9ZajHe3S/7SIXL+GJ19XqIUCv X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list X-BeenThere: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org List-Id: "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "bug-gnu-emacs" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.bugs:221617 Archived-At: Lars Ingebrigtsen writes: > [...] I.e., all the generalised variables that are used for side > effect (as opposed to mutating an explicit object) are liable to cause > confusion. I would want to limit this to the kind of side effect: is it undoubtedly clear what it is, is there a "canonical" side effect? This is the case e.g. for `buffer-modified-p' to a high degree, but not for e.g. `point-max': there are several ways to achieve that `point-max' will return a certain value - killing a certain amount of text, for example. Or narrowing. Narrowing was not the thing that came to my mind first. A setter for it might cause confusion because the semantics are not clear, in contrast to `buffer-modified-p', I think, where it is quite clear. I mean, Emacs is an editor, so we have more aspects of state than variable bindings. Setting variables can also have other side effects than simply changing the variable's binding. Per se I don't see a problem in considering more kinds of state (more than variables) as places. OTOH, `point-max' for example is not really a self-contained part of state, it's a value of a computation, a derived value. The classification result can be a bit subjective and depend on the viewing point, of course. Michael.