bug#45402: 28.0.50; new completion inconvenience

bug#45402: 28.0.50; new completion inconvenience

[Richard Stallman]

My default directory is ~/ and I tyoe C-x C-f /med TAB.

It used to give me ~//media/.  Another TAB would give me
~//media/rms/.

But now it gives me ~//media and more TABs does not get me any further
than that.

I think this is related to Tramp, but I don't use Tramp.



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[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]


-- 
Dr Richard Stallman
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

bug#45402: 28.0.50; new completion inconvenience

[Jean Louis]

* Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> [2020-12-24 08:54]:
> 
> My default directory is ~/ and I tyoe C-x C-f /med TAB.
> 
> It used to give me ~//media/.  Another TAB would give me
> ~//media/rms/.

If you don't type double slash and press TAB what happens then?

Instead of ~//media, try ~/media<TAB>

bug#45402: 28.0.50; new completion inconvenience

[Michael Albinus]

Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:

Hi Richard,

> My default directory is ~/ and I tyoe C-x C-f /med TAB.
>
> It used to give me ~//media/.  Another TAB would give me
> ~//media/rms/.
>
> But now it gives me ~//media and more TABs does not get me any further
> than that.
>
> I think this is related to Tramp, but I don't use Tramp.

This is Tramp indeed. It knows a new method "media", which is in the way
now for you. If you enter another "/" after "...media" in your
minibuffer, TAB will continue to complete as you know.

If you don't use Tramp, just set tramp-mode to nil in your .emacs.

Best regards, Michael.

bug#45402: 28.0.50; new completion inconvenience

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Michael Albinus <michael.albinus@gmx.de>
> Date: Thu, 24 Dec 2020 09:53:40 +0100
> Cc: 45402@debbugs.gnu.org
> 
> > My default directory is ~/ and I tyoe C-x C-f /med TAB.
> >
> > It used to give me ~//media/.  Another TAB would give me
> > ~//media/rms/.
> >
> > But now it gives me ~//media and more TABs does not get me any further
> > than that.
> >
> > I think this is related to Tramp, but I don't use Tramp.
> 
> This is Tramp indeed. It knows a new method "media", which is in the way
> now for you. If you enter another "/" after "...media" in your
> minibuffer, TAB will continue to complete as you know.

Really?  I always thought that the leading slash in "/media" causes
Emacs to disregard the "~/" part, and interpret the rest as relative
to "/", the filesystem root?  When I type '/' on my system, Emacs
gives the preceding "~/" part a shadow-y color (and on a TTY places it
in {..}), to show that it is being ignored.

How come Richard gets ~//media instead? he should get /media, without
the leading "~/".  What am I missing?

bug#45402: 28.0.50; new completion inconvenience

[Michael Albinus]

Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:

Hi Eli,

> Really?  I always thought that the leading slash in "/media" causes
> Emacs to disregard the "~/" part, and interpret the rest as relative
> to "/", the filesystem root?  When I type '/' on my system, Emacs
> gives the preceding "~/" part a shadow-y color (and on a TTY places it
> in {..}), to show that it is being ignored.

Yes.

> How come Richard gets ~//media instead? he should get /media, without
> the leading "~/".  What am I missing?

The leading "~/" string is greyed out. That's expected.

Best regards, Michael.

bug#45402: 28.0.50; new completion inconvenience

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Michael Albinus <michael.albinus@gmx.de>
> Cc: rms@gnu.org,  45402@debbugs.gnu.org
> Date: Thu, 24 Dec 2020 18:02:35 +0100
> 
> > How come Richard gets ~//media instead? he should get /media, without
> > the leading "~/".  What am I missing?
> 
> The leading "~/" string is greyed out. That's expected.

If that's the case, fine.  I thought it wasn't, as Richard was
mentioning it, although it is effectively deleted.

bug#45402: 28.0.50; new completion inconvenience

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > This is Tramp indeed. It knows a new method "media", which is in the way
  > now for you.

This is an unfortunate choice of name.  GNU/Linux (at least some distros)
automounts disks and memories under /media, which means that this Tramp
method name is going to collide regularly.

How about if we look at changing the name in Tramp.  Can you see
another name that fits what it does?
(What does it do?)

  
-- 
Dr Richard Stallman
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

bug#45402: 28.0.50; new completion inconvenience

[Lars Ingebrigtsen]

Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:

> My default directory is ~/ and I tyoe C-x C-f /med TAB.
>
> It used to give me ~//media/.  Another TAB would give me
> ~//media/rms/.

But why do you type "/med TAB" instead of "med TAB"?

And I'm unable to reproduce the behaviour you're describing in older
Emacs versions -- I tried this in Emacs 25.1, and `C-x C-f /med TAB'
just gives me "No match", even if ~/media exists.

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no

bug#45402: 28.0.50; new completion inconvenience

[Michael Albinus]

Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:

Hi Richard,

>   > This is Tramp indeed. It knows a new method "media", which is in the way
>   > now for you.
>
> This is an unfortunate choice of name.  GNU/Linux (at least some distros)
> automounts disks and memories under /media, which means that this Tramp
> method name is going to collide regularly.
>
> How about if we look at changing the name in Tramp.  Can you see
> another name that fits what it does?

Makes sense, yes.

> (What does it do?)

It gives you file access to USB mounted media devices, like digital
cameras, Android and i(Pad)OS devices. Usually, those devices do not
appear locally under /media, that's why I have added them in Tramp.

The mount protocols are different depending on the device, they could be
"mtp" or "gphoto2". In order to hide these details, I have chosen the
Tramp connection method "media", which DTRT for whichever protocol. What
different Tramp connection name shall I use instead? I'm notorious bad
in selecting proper names.

Best regards, Michael.

bug#45402: 28.0.50; new completion inconvenience

[Michael Albinus]

Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@gnus.org> writes:

Hi Lars,

>> My default directory is ~/ and I tyoe C-x C-f /med TAB.
>>
>> It used to give me ~//media/.  Another TAB would give me
>> ~//media/rms/.
>
> But why do you type "/med TAB" instead of "med TAB"?

Because he wants to enter the "/media" directory.

> And I'm unable to reproduce the behaviour you're describing in older
> Emacs versions -- I tried this in Emacs 25.1, and `C-x C-f /med TAB'
> just gives me "No match", even if ~/media exists.

"/med" has nothing to do with "~/media".

And Tramp's "media" method exist only in the master branch.

Best regards, Michael.

bug#45402: 28.0.50; new completion inconvenience

[Kévin Le Gouguec]

Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@gnus.org> writes:

> Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:
>
>> My default directory is ~/ and I tyoe C-x C-f /med TAB.
>>
>> It used to give me ~//media/.  Another TAB would give me
>> ~//media/rms/.
>
> But why do you type "/med TAB" instead of "med TAB"?

The assumption, I believe, is that the target folder is under /media/,
while the initial prompt is "~/".  Starting with a slash causes the
initial prompt to be "greyed out" (i.e. rendered ineffectual unless the
user backspaces).

> And I'm unable to reproduce the behaviour you're describing in older
> Emacs versions -- I tried this in Emacs 25.1, and `C-x C-f /med TAB'
> just gives me "No match", even if ~/media exists.

As Richard explained in <E1ksevx-0003Un-Sf@fencepost.gnu.org>, some
GNU/Linux distros mount external media under /media/$USER, so typing
/med TAB greys out the initial ~/ and used to complete to /media/$USER
(if $USER is the only folder under /media).  Now users need to type an
additional slash to disambiguate from "/media:".

bug#45402: 28.0.50; new completion inconvenience

[Lars Ingebrigtsen]

Kévin Le Gouguec <kevin.legouguec@gmail.com> writes:

>> But why do you type "/med TAB" instead of "med TAB"?
>
> The assumption, I believe, is that the target folder is under /media/,
> while the initial prompt is "~/".  Starting with a slash causes the
> initial prompt to be "greyed out" (i.e. rendered ineffectual unless the
> user backspaces).

Oh, I see.  I thought Richard wanted to get to a directory called
~/media/.

> As Richard explained in <E1ksevx-0003Un-Sf@fencepost.gnu.org>, some
> GNU/Linux distros mount external media under /media/$USER, so typing
> /med TAB greys out the initial ~/ and used to complete to /media/$USER
> (if $USER is the only folder under /media).  Now users need to type an
> additional slash to disambiguate from "/media:".

Yup; I've also got a /media/ directory, and I see the same thing.
/media/ is a common directory on many systems -- would it make sense to
rename the Tramp method to something other than media:?

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no

bug#45402: 28.0.50; new completion inconvenience

[Michael Albinus]

Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@gnus.org> writes:

Hi Lars,

>> As Richard explained in <E1ksevx-0003Un-Sf@fencepost.gnu.org>, some
>> GNU/Linux distros mount external media under /media/$USER, so typing
>> /med TAB greys out the initial ~/ and used to complete to /media/$USER
>> (if $USER is the only folder under /media).  Now users need to type an
>> additional slash to disambiguate from "/media:".
>
> Yup; I've also got a /media/ directory, and I see the same thing.
> /media/ is a common directory on many systems -- would it make sense to
> rename the Tramp method to something other than media:?

Yes, as I said already to Richard. I just miss a better name. Any
proposals?

(Internally, the GVFS methods mtp and gphoto2 are used. Although I have
sympathy for the name mtp, it would be wrong wrt gphoto2.)

Best regards, Michael.

bug#45402: Rename Tramp method "media"

[Kévin Le Gouguec]

Michael Albinus <michael.albinus@gmx.de> writes:

> (Internally, the GVFS methods mtp and gphoto2 are used. Although I have
> sympathy for the name mtp, it would be wrong wrt gphoto2.)

Going by Wikipedia, maybe /mtp: isn't too off-target?

> gPhoto has support for the Picture Transfer Protocol (PTP) and will
> also connect to devices that use the Media Transfer Protocol (MTP).
— https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GPhoto

> Whereas PTP was designed for downloading photographs from digital
> cameras, Media Transfer Protocol allows the transfer of music files on
> digital audio players and media files on portable media players, as
> well as personal information on personal digital assistants.
— https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Media_Transfer_Protocol

I have no expertise whatsoever about these protocols; I only learned
about them just now.  Are there users we could poll to find a method
name that makes sense?  I've looked at 2020-01-22 "Add new Tramp method
"media"" (2d9d62bb24), but I could not see any bug ID, so I don't know
who we could turn to.

bug#45402: Rename Tramp method "media"

[Drew Adams]

It's no doubt too late now, at least in general,
but maybe it would make sense to use a prefix
for Tramp, kind of like what we do for libraries.

Besides being too late, I imagine someone will
say that that would be too verbose for users to
type, which is true.

But even a prefix of "t" might be sufficient to
usually distinguish Tramp's protocol names.  In
this case, ~//tmedia would mean Tramp's protocol
and ~//media would mean (change to) local
directory /media.

Yeah, it's ugly.  But the Tramp syntax is
apparently inherently ambiguous here (i.e., can
conflict with a dir name).

bug#45402: Rename Tramp method "media"

[Kévin Le Gouguec]

Drew Adams <drew.adams@oracle.com> writes:

> It's no doubt too late now, at least in general,
> but maybe it would make sense to use a prefix
> for Tramp, kind of like what we do for libraries.

I might be missing something, but it seems to me like there is a rather
large design space for opt-in, backward-compatible ways to disambiguate
Tramp methods: off the top of my head, I could imagine e.g. a variable
(say "tramp-implicit-methods") which

- could default to t, meaning:

> always assume that /foo can actually mean /trampfoo for all foo's
> supported by Tramp

- could be set to a list of commonly used Tramp methods, e.g. '("ssh"
  "sudoedit"), meaning:

> when I type /ssh, assume that I can mean /trampssh; otherwise if I
> type /foo assume that I never mean /trampfoo

- could be set to nil, meaning:

> when I type /foo, I *never* mean /trampfoo for any foo supported by
> Tramp; I will always type out /trampfoo:

Or we could go the opposite route, with e.g. tramp-explicit-methods (nil
by default), which in the context of this report could be set to
'("media") so that /media can complete to /media/$USER, and users would
be required to type out /trampmedia: explicitly.

bug#45402: Rename Tramp method "media"

[Michael Albinus]

Drew Adams <drew.adams@oracle.com> writes:

Hi Drew,

> But even a prefix of "t" might be sufficient to
> usually distinguish Tramp's protocol names.  In
> this case, ~//tmedia would mean Tramp's protocol
> and ~//media would mean (change to) local
> directory /media.

Until now, it is just the "media" method which is too close to a
directory name. And this can simply be avoided; taking "media" off the
default values of tramp-gvfs-methods would deactivate it; users who want
to exploit it must activate it first.

But currently I'm thinking about Kévin's arguments to call it "mtp". It
was also my first choice, but I wanted to be fair to the "gphoto2" method.

> Yeah, it's ugly.  But the Tramp syntax is
> apparently inherently ambiguous here (i.e., can
> conflict with a dir name).

This will always be the case. Once I got a bug report from a user, who
wanted to access a local directory "/ssh:example.com/", see
bug#31489. Achhhh ...

Best regards, Michael.

bug#45402: Rename Tramp method "media"

[Michael Albinus]

Kévin Le Gouguec <kevin.legouguec@gmail.com> writes:

Hi Kévin,

> I might be missing something, but it seems to me like there is a rather
> large design space for opt-in, backward-compatible ways to disambiguate
> Tramp methods: off the top of my head, I could imagine e.g. a variable
> (say "tramp-implicit-methods") which

There are people who use Tramp, and there are people who don't. For the
latter, there is tramp-mode. Setting it to nil makes Tramp silent, in
all aspects.

Customizing which Tramp methods shall be used for completion is too
complicate for the majority of users I believe.

> Or we could go the opposite route, with e.g. tramp-explicit-methods (nil
> by default), which in the context of this report could be set to
> '("media") so that /media can complete to /media/$USER, and users would
> be required to type out /trampmedia: explicitly.

This exists already. Remove the "media" entry from tramp-methods, and
you're done.

Best regards, Michael.

bug#45402: 28.0.50; new completion inconvenience

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > The mount protocols are different depending on the device, they could be
  > "mtp" or "gphoto2". In order to hide these details, I have chosen the
  > Tramp connection method "media", which DTRT for whichever protocol. What
  > different Tramp connection name shall I use instead? I'm notorious bad
  > in selecting proper names.

How about /device: ?

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

bug#45402: 28.0.50; new completion inconvenience

[Michael Albinus]

Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:

Hi Richard,

>   > The mount protocols are different depending on the device, they could be
>   > "mtp" or "gphoto2". In order to hide these details, I have chosen the
>   > Tramp connection method "media", which DTRT for whichever protocol. What
>   > different Tramp connection name shall I use instead? I'm notorious bad
>   > in selecting proper names.
>
> How about /device: ?

Yes, that was something I took into account when I'vge created
"/media:". However, people typing "/dev TAB" will also be annoyed,
because it could complete to "/dev/" and to "/device:".

Meanwhile, I'm discussing with myself, whether "/mtp:" is acceptable. It
is the superior protocol. I hope I will win the discussion :-)

Best regards, Michael.

bug#45402: Rename Tramp method "media"

[Michael Albinus]

Kévin Le Gouguec <kevin.legouguec@gmail.com> writes:

Hi Kévin,

> I have no expertise whatsoever about these protocols; I only learned
> about them just now.  Are there users we could poll to find a method
> name that makes sense?  I've looked at 2020-01-22 "Add new Tramp method
> "media"" (2d9d62bb24), but I could not see any bug ID, so I don't know
> who we could turn to.

There was no external request, it was my own decision to add this Tramp
method.

Finally, I've converted "media" to "mtp" in Tramp. So what. Closing the bug.

Best regards, Michael.

bug#45402: Rename Tramp method "media"

[Drew Adams]

> Once I got a bug report from a user, who wanted
> to access a local directory "/ssh:example.com/",
> see bug#31489. Achhhh ...

Yowza!   ;-)

bug#45402: 28.0.50; new completion inconvenience

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > Yes, that was something I took into account when I'vge created
  > "/media:". However, people typing "/dev TAB" will also be annoyed,
  > because it could complete to "/dev/" and to "/device:".

I thought about that and concluded that there is little occasion to
enter /dev in a minibuffer in Emacs.  (Have you ever done so?)
So it is a potential problem that won't actually happen, and that makes
it ok.

  > Meanwhile, I'm discussing with myself, whether "/mtp:" is acceptable. It
  > is the superior protocol. I hope I will win the discussion :-)

I see no problem with it.


-- 
Dr Richard Stallman
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)