* bug#36365: Add info how to deselect secondary selection (Emacs manual)
@ 2019-06-24 17:59 Sebastian Urban
2019-07-06 8:31 ` Eli Zaretskii
0 siblings, 1 reply; 15+ messages in thread
From: Sebastian Urban @ 2019-06-24 17:59 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 36365
Because, if it's "selection", people may think that to deselect all
you need is to click 'mouse-1' somewhere, but it doesn't work, as well
as 'C-g' and it may be confusing.
Therefore please add information about 'M-mouse-1' as a way to
deselect, perhaps somewhere next to the L626-627 or after the
definition of 'M-mouse-1' L607-608 in KILLING.TEXI.
Then update documentation string for 'mouse-start-secondary' with the
same information.
===
Also (because it's the same chapter) in Emacs manual (INFO) "12.3.3
Secondary Selection" description of 'M-mouse-3' could be changed:
FROM
Set the secondary selection, with one end at the position clicked
and the other at the position specified with ‘M-mouse-1’
(‘mouse-secondary-save-then-kill’). This also puts the selected
text in the kill ring. A second ‘M-mouse-3’ at the same place
kills the secondary selection just made.
TO
Set the secondary selection, with one end at the position clicked and
the other at the position specified with ‘M-mouse-1’, and put the
selected text in the kill ring (‘mouse-secondary-save-then-kill’).
A second ‘M-mouse-3’ at the same place kills the secondary selection
just made.
Placement of 'mouse-secondary-save-then-kill' will be better, right
now it may confuse people because it stands next to 'M-mouse-1' which
has different command.
S. U.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 15+ messages in thread
* bug#36365: Add info how to deselect secondary selection (Emacs manual)
2019-06-24 17:59 bug#36365: Add info how to deselect secondary selection (Emacs manual) Sebastian Urban
@ 2019-07-06 8:31 ` Eli Zaretskii
2019-07-06 18:17 ` Sebastian Urban
0 siblings, 1 reply; 15+ messages in thread
From: Eli Zaretskii @ 2019-07-06 8:31 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Sebastian Urban; +Cc: 36365-done
> From: Sebastian Urban <mrsebastianurban@gmail.com>
> Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2019 19:59:42 +0200
>
> Because, if it's "selection", people may think that to deselect all
> you need is to click 'mouse-1' somewhere, but it doesn't work, as well
> as 'C-g' and it may be confusing.
>
> Therefore please add information about 'M-mouse-1' as a way to
> deselect, perhaps somewhere next to the L626-627 or after the
> definition of 'M-mouse-1' L607-608 in KILLING.TEXI.
>
> Then update documentation string for 'mouse-start-secondary' with the
> same information.
>
> ===
>
> Also (because it's the same chapter) in Emacs manual (INFO) "12.3.3
> Secondary Selection" description of 'M-mouse-3' could be changed:
>
> FROM
> Set the secondary selection, with one end at the position clicked
> and the other at the position specified with ‘M-mouse-1’
> (‘mouse-secondary-save-then-kill’). This also puts the selected
> text in the kill ring. A second ‘M-mouse-3’ at the same place
> kills the secondary selection just made.
>
> TO
> Set the secondary selection, with one end at the position clicked and
> the other at the position specified with ‘M-mouse-1’, and put the
> selected text in the kill ring (‘mouse-secondary-save-then-kill’).
> A second ‘M-mouse-3’ at the same place kills the secondary selection
> just made.
>
> Placement of 'mouse-secondary-save-then-kill' will be better, right
> now it may confuse people because it stands next to 'M-mouse-1' which
> has different command.
Thanks, I fixed these two issues.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 15+ messages in thread
* bug#36365: Add info how to deselect secondary selection (Emacs manual)
2019-07-06 8:31 ` Eli Zaretskii
@ 2019-07-06 18:17 ` Sebastian Urban
2019-07-06 18:21 ` Eli Zaretskii
0 siblings, 1 reply; 15+ messages in thread
From: Sebastian Urban @ 2019-07-06 18:17 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Eli Zaretskii; +Cc: 36365
Ok, thanks, but what about documentation string for
'mouse-start-secondary' (i.e. 'M-x describe-function -> m-s-s')?
I also have problem with:
... if you click @kbd{M-mouse-1} on the mode line or on the header line.
I guessing that clicking 'M-mouse-1' anywhere in the text will cancel
selection, but also start new one, and doing so on mode line/header
line, will not start new selection, is it correct so far? But then
when I do so I get:
<mode-line> <M-mouse-1> is undefined
OR
<header-line> <M-mouse-1> is undefined
and secondary selection is still there. Am I doing something wrong?
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 15+ messages in thread* bug#36365: Add info how to deselect secondary selection (Emacs manual)
2019-07-06 18:17 ` Sebastian Urban
@ 2019-07-06 18:21 ` Eli Zaretskii
2019-07-06 18:24 ` Eli Zaretskii
2019-07-06 18:35 ` Eli Zaretskii
0 siblings, 2 replies; 15+ messages in thread
From: Eli Zaretskii @ 2019-07-06 18:21 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Sebastian Urban; +Cc: 36365
> From: Sebastian Urban <mrsebastianurban@gmail.com>
> Cc: 36365@debbugs.gnu.org
> Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2019 20:17:13 +0200
>
> Ok, thanks, but what about documentation string for
> 'mouse-start-secondary' (i.e. 'M-x describe-function -> m-s-s')?
What about it? There was no mention of that in your original report.
> I also have problem with:
> ... if you click @kbd{M-mouse-1} on the mode line or on the header line.
>
> I guessing that clicking 'M-mouse-1' anywhere in the text will cancel
> selection, but also start new one, and doing so on mode line/header
> line, will not start new selection, is it correct so far? But then
> when I do so I get:
> <mode-line> <M-mouse-1> is undefined
> OR
> <header-line> <M-mouse-1> is undefined
> and secondary selection is still there. Am I doing something wrong?
I have no idea, as on my system secondary selections simply don't
work. I guess someone else will have to find the way of deselecting
without starting a new selection, if one exists. And if it doesn't
exist, I will simply remove that text, so that docs match the reality.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 15+ messages in thread* bug#36365: Add info how to deselect secondary selection (Emacs manual)
2019-07-06 18:21 ` Eli Zaretskii
@ 2019-07-06 18:24 ` Eli Zaretskii
2019-07-06 18:35 ` Eli Zaretskii
1 sibling, 0 replies; 15+ messages in thread
From: Eli Zaretskii @ 2019-07-06 18:24 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: mrsebastianurban; +Cc: 36365
> Date: Sat, 06 Jul 2019 21:21:21 +0300
> From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org>
> Cc: 36365@debbugs.gnu.org
>
> > From: Sebastian Urban <mrsebastianurban@gmail.com>
> > Cc: 36365@debbugs.gnu.org
> > Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2019 20:17:13 +0200
> >
> > Ok, thanks, but what about documentation string for
> > 'mouse-start-secondary' (i.e. 'M-x describe-function -> m-s-s')?
>
> What about it? There was no mention of that in your original report.
Oh, sorry, I see there was, but I missed it.
But I see nothing wrong with the doc string as it is.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 15+ messages in thread
* bug#36365: Add info how to deselect secondary selection (Emacs manual)
2019-07-06 18:21 ` Eli Zaretskii
2019-07-06 18:24 ` Eli Zaretskii
@ 2019-07-06 18:35 ` Eli Zaretskii
2019-07-07 8:05 ` Sebastian Urban
1 sibling, 1 reply; 15+ messages in thread
From: Eli Zaretskii @ 2019-07-06 18:35 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: mrsebastianurban; +Cc: 36365
> Date: Sat, 06 Jul 2019 21:21:21 +0300
> From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org>
> Cc: 36365@debbugs.gnu.org
>
> > I guessing that clicking 'M-mouse-1' anywhere in the text will cancel
> > selection, but also start new one, and doing so on mode line/header
> > line, will not start new selection, is it correct so far? But then
> > when I do so I get:
> > <mode-line> <M-mouse-1> is undefined
> > OR
> > <header-line> <M-mouse-1> is undefined
> > and secondary selection is still there. Am I doing something wrong?
>
> I have no idea, as on my system secondary selections simply don't
> work. I guess someone else will have to find the way of deselecting
> without starting a new selection, if one exists. And if it doesn't
> exist, I will simply remove that text, so that docs match the reality.
I see now that there's no way of canceling a secondary selection
without starting a new one. So I changed the text to reflect that.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 15+ messages in thread
* bug#36365: Add info how to deselect secondary selection (Emacs manual)
2019-07-06 18:35 ` Eli Zaretskii
@ 2019-07-07 8:05 ` Sebastian Urban
2019-08-01 13:33 ` Sebastian Urban
0 siblings, 1 reply; 15+ messages in thread
From: Sebastian Urban @ 2019-07-07 8:05 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Eli Zaretskii; +Cc: 36365
> But I see nothing wrong with the doc string as it is.
Right now the string is:
Set one end of the secondary selection to the position clicked on.
Use <M-mouse-3> to set the other end
and complete the secondary selection.
As you can see - no information about deselect, so perhaps just
copy-paste last sentence from your patch - "This command cancels any
existing secondary selection, when it starts a new one."
> I see now that there's no way of cancelling a secondary selection
> without starting a new one. So I changed the text to reflect that.
Alright, but I think:
use @kbd{M-mouse-3} to set the other end and complete the selection.
that this sentence from the patch is unnecessary. How to set
secondary selection is in description of 'M-mouse-3' which is just ONE
line below. In doc string of 'mouse-start-secondary' it is OK,
because there is no description of 'M-mouse-3', but in the manual
there is.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 15+ messages in thread* bug#36365: Add info how to deselect secondary selection (Emacs manual)
2019-07-07 8:05 ` Sebastian Urban
@ 2019-08-01 13:33 ` Sebastian Urban
2019-08-02 9:00 ` Eli Zaretskii
0 siblings, 1 reply; 15+ messages in thread
From: Sebastian Urban @ 2019-08-01 13:33 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Sebastian Urban, Eli Zaretskii; +Cc: 36365
>> But I see nothing wrong with the doc string as it is.
>
> Right now the string is:
> Set one end of the secondary selection to the position clicked
> on. Use <M-mouse-3> to set the other end and complete the
> secondary selection.
>
> As you can see - no information about deselect, so perhaps just
> copy-paste last sentence from your patch - "This command
> cancels any existing secondary selection, when it starts a new
> one."
Any update on this...
>> I see now that there's no way of cancelling a secondary selection
>> without starting a new one. So I changed the text to reflect that.
>
> Alright, but I think:
> use @kbd{M-mouse-3} to set the other end and complete the
> selection.
>
> that this sentence from the patch is unnecessary. How to set
> secondary selection is in description of 'M-mouse-3' which is just
> ONE line below. In doc string of 'mouse-start-secondary' it is OK,
> because there is no description of 'M-mouse-3', but in the manual
> there is.
and this?
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 15+ messages in thread* bug#36365: Add info how to deselect secondary selection (Emacs manual)
2019-08-01 13:33 ` Sebastian Urban
@ 2019-08-02 9:00 ` Eli Zaretskii
2019-08-02 10:52 ` Sebastian Urban
0 siblings, 1 reply; 15+ messages in thread
From: Eli Zaretskii @ 2019-08-02 9:00 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Sebastian Urban; +Cc: 36365
> From: Sebastian Urban <mrsebastianurban@gmail.com>
> Cc: 36365@debbugs.gnu.org
> Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2019 15:33:17 +0200
>
> >> But I see nothing wrong with the doc string as it is.
> >
> > Right now the string is:
> > Set one end of the secondary selection to the position clicked
> > on. Use <M-mouse-3> to set the other end and complete the
> > secondary selection.
> >
> > As you can see - no information about deselect, so perhaps just
> > copy-paste last sentence from your patch - "This command
> > cancels any existing secondary selection, when it starts a new
> > one."
>
> Any update on this...
>
> >> I see now that there's no way of cancelling a secondary selection
> >> without starting a new one. So I changed the text to reflect that.
> >
> > Alright, but I think:
> > use @kbd{M-mouse-3} to set the other end and complete the
> > selection.
> >
> > that this sentence from the patch is unnecessary. How to set
> > secondary selection is in description of 'M-mouse-3' which is just
> > ONE line below. In doc string of 'mouse-start-secondary' it is OK,
> > because there is no description of 'M-mouse-3', but in the manual
> > there is.
>
> and this?
I don't think there's anything wrong with the documentation you cite,
and I thought I already explained why I thought so in this discussion.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 15+ messages in thread* bug#36365: Add info how to deselect secondary selection (Emacs manual)
2019-08-02 9:00 ` Eli Zaretskii
@ 2019-08-02 10:52 ` Sebastian Urban
2019-08-02 12:05 ` Eli Zaretskii
0 siblings, 1 reply; 15+ messages in thread
From: Sebastian Urban @ 2019-08-02 10:52 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Eli Zaretskii; +Cc: 36365
> I don't think there's anything wrong with the documentation you
> cite, and I thought I already explained why I thought so in this
> discussion.
Well, now I'm confused. I reread the thread and I found nothing but
"I see nothing wrong with the doc string as it is" as an explanation
for not changing the doc string of 'mouse-start-secondary'. And I'm
still going to write that it's missing information about deselecting,
which could be useful.
As for description of 'M-mouse-1' in Emacs Manual, I will also write
that the "use @kbd{M-mouse-3} to set the other end and complete the
selection" part of the sentence below is unnecessary.
From KILLING.TEXI (L604-610):
@findex mouse-start-secondary
@kindex M-mouse-1
@item M-mouse-1
Set one endpoint for the @dfn{secondary selection}
(@code{mouse-start-secondary}); use @kbd{M-mouse-3} to set the other
end and complete the selection. This command cancels any existing
secondary selection, when it starts a new one.
But in this case, if you have a reason for this, that I cannot see,
I'll leave this one alone.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 15+ messages in thread* bug#36365: Add info how to deselect secondary selection (Emacs manual)
2019-08-02 10:52 ` Sebastian Urban
@ 2019-08-02 12:05 ` Eli Zaretskii
2019-08-02 13:29 ` Sebastian Urban
0 siblings, 1 reply; 15+ messages in thread
From: Eli Zaretskii @ 2019-08-02 12:05 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Sebastian Urban; +Cc: 36365
> From: Sebastian Urban <mrsebastianurban@gmail.com>
> Cc: 36365@debbugs.gnu.org
> Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2019 12:52:23 +0200
>
> > I don't think there's anything wrong with the documentation you
> > cite, and I thought I already explained why I thought so in this
> > discussion.
>
> Well, now I'm confused. I reread the thread and I found nothing but
> "I see nothing wrong with the doc string as it is" as an explanation
> for not changing the doc string of 'mouse-start-secondary'. And I'm
> still going to write that it's missing information about deselecting,
> which could be useful.
We've established that it isn't possible to deselect without making a
new selection. So I don't think deselection is something we can
describe, as it doesn't really exist.
> As for description of 'M-mouse-1' in Emacs Manual, I will also write
> that the "use @kbd{M-mouse-3} to set the other end and complete the
> selection" part of the sentence below is unnecessary.
>
> From KILLING.TEXI (L604-610):
> @findex mouse-start-secondary
> @kindex M-mouse-1
> @item M-mouse-1
> Set one endpoint for the @dfn{secondary selection}
> (@code{mouse-start-secondary}); use @kbd{M-mouse-3} to set the other
> end and complete the selection. This command cancels any existing
> secondary selection, when it starts a new one.
>
> But in this case, if you have a reason for this, that I cannot see,
> I'll leave this one alone.
Yes, the manual should generally present a coherent text, so the
addition looked like an improvement to me.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 15+ messages in thread* bug#36365: Add info how to deselect secondary selection (Emacs manual)
2019-08-02 12:05 ` Eli Zaretskii
@ 2019-08-02 13:29 ` Sebastian Urban
2019-08-02 14:29 ` Eli Zaretskii
0 siblings, 1 reply; 15+ messages in thread
From: Sebastian Urban @ 2019-08-02 13:29 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Eli Zaretskii; +Cc: 36365
> We've established that it isn't possible to deselect without making
> a new selection.
True.
> So I don't think deselection is something we can describe, as it
> doesn't really exist.
That's why additional sentence won't be:
"This command cancels any existing secondary selection."
Instead it should be:
"This command cancels any existing secondary selection, when it
starts a new one."
This sentence is from your patch and is applied to 'M-mouse-1'
description in the manual, which runs 'mouse-start-secondary'.
>> As for description of 'M-mouse-1' in Emacs Manual, (...)
>
> Yes, the manual should generally present a coherent text, so the
> addition looked like an improvement to me.
OK, although I still disagree that this is an improvement, as I said
in previous message, I'm leaving this one alone.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 15+ messages in thread* bug#36365: Add info how to deselect secondary selection (Emacs manual)
2019-08-02 13:29 ` Sebastian Urban
@ 2019-08-02 14:29 ` Eli Zaretskii
2019-08-02 15:57 ` Sebastian Urban
0 siblings, 1 reply; 15+ messages in thread
From: Eli Zaretskii @ 2019-08-02 14:29 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Sebastian Urban; +Cc: 36365
> From: Sebastian Urban <mrsebastianurban@gmail.com>
> Cc: 36365@debbugs.gnu.org
> Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2019 15:29:43 +0200
>
> > We've established that it isn't possible to deselect without making
> > a new selection.
>
> True.
>
> > So I don't think deselection is something we can describe, as it
> > doesn't really exist.
>
> That's why additional sentence won't be:
> "This command cancels any existing secondary selection."
> Instead it should be:
> "This command cancels any existing secondary selection, when it
> starts a new one."
>
> This sentence is from your patch and is applied to 'M-mouse-1'
> description in the manual, which runs 'mouse-start-secondary'.
It's okay for the manual to go an extra mile, but the fact that
starting a new selection cancels the old one is a trivium, so it isn't
necessary in the doc string.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 15+ messages in thread
* bug#36365: Add info how to deselect secondary selection (Emacs manual)
2019-08-02 14:29 ` Eli Zaretskii
@ 2019-08-02 15:57 ` Sebastian Urban
0 siblings, 0 replies; 15+ messages in thread
From: Sebastian Urban @ 2019-08-02 15:57 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Eli Zaretskii; +Cc: 36365
> It's okay for the manual to go an extra mile, but the fact that
> starting a new selection cancels the old one is a trivium, so it
> isn't necessary in the doc string.
OK, if you say so, then from my point of view this discussion is
finished.
Thanks again for updating manual.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 15+ messages in thread
[parent not found: <<e18bef17-9b93-da5f-bc47-1481acebfde5@gmail.com>]
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2019-06-24 17:59 bug#36365: Add info how to deselect secondary selection (Emacs manual) Sebastian Urban
2019-07-06 8:31 ` Eli Zaretskii
2019-07-06 18:17 ` Sebastian Urban
2019-07-06 18:21 ` Eli Zaretskii
2019-07-06 18:24 ` Eli Zaretskii
2019-07-06 18:35 ` Eli Zaretskii
2019-07-07 8:05 ` Sebastian Urban
2019-08-01 13:33 ` Sebastian Urban
2019-08-02 9:00 ` Eli Zaretskii
2019-08-02 10:52 ` Sebastian Urban
2019-08-02 12:05 ` Eli Zaretskii
2019-08-02 13:29 ` Sebastian Urban
2019-08-02 14:29 ` Eli Zaretskii
2019-08-02 15:57 ` Sebastian Urban
[not found] <<e18bef17-9b93-da5f-bc47-1481acebfde5@gmail.com>
[not found] ` <<83zhlr8sxv.fsf@gnu.org>
[not found] ` <<62734ba6-a335-710a-2d09-3b54f0d58bde@gmail.com>
[not found] ` <<834l3z81ni.fsf@gnu.org>
[not found] ` <<831rz38107.fsf@gnu.org>
2019-07-06 21:12 ` Drew Adams
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