* bug#24597: 25.1; Fonts used by default in Info
@ 2016-10-03 15:48 Drew Adams
2016-10-03 16:14 ` Eli Zaretskii
2019-09-29 4:15 ` Stefan Kangas
0 siblings, 2 replies; 11+ messages in thread
From: Drew Adams @ 2016-10-03 15:48 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 24597
The fonts used (on MS Windows, at least) by default, for Info, are
these:
* For text in general:
uniscribe:-outline-Courier
New-normal-normal-normal-mono-17-*-*-*-c-*-iso8859-1 (#x52)
* For text enclosed in ‘...’:
gdi:-outline-Courier-normal-normal-normal-mono-17-*-*-*-c-*-iso8859-1
(#x65)
The latter comes from the default value of face `Info-quoted', which
specifies only the family (as courier).
Why use, by default, two **slightly** different looking fonts? They are
not different enough to make ‘...’ very noticeable. Nor are they the
same. What's the point of this choice?
In GNU Emacs 25.1.1 (x86_64-w64-mingw32)
of 2016-09-17 built on LAPHROAIG
Windowing system distributor 'Microsoft Corp.', version 6.1.7601
Configured using:
'configure --without-dbus --without-compress-install CFLAGS=-static'
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread
* bug#24597: 25.1; Fonts used by default in Info
2016-10-03 15:48 bug#24597: 25.1; Fonts used by default in Info Drew Adams
@ 2016-10-03 16:14 ` Eli Zaretskii
2016-10-03 16:35 ` Drew Adams
2019-09-29 4:15 ` Stefan Kangas
1 sibling, 1 reply; 11+ messages in thread
From: Eli Zaretskii @ 2016-10-03 16:14 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Drew Adams; +Cc: 24597
> Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2016 08:48:51 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Drew Adams <drew.adams@oracle.com>
>
> Why use, by default, two **slightly** different looking fonts? They are
> not different enough to make ‘...’ very noticeable. Nor are they the
> same. What's the point of this choice?
The point is exactly to have a different face for symbols.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread
* bug#24597: 25.1; Fonts used by default in Info
2016-10-03 16:14 ` Eli Zaretskii
@ 2016-10-03 16:35 ` Drew Adams
2016-10-03 17:29 ` Eli Zaretskii
0 siblings, 1 reply; 11+ messages in thread
From: Drew Adams @ 2016-10-03 16:35 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Eli Zaretskii; +Cc: 24597
> > Why use, by default, two **slightly** different looking fonts? They are
> > not different enough to make ‘...’ very noticeable. Nor are they the
> > same. What's the point of this choice?
>
> The point is exactly to have a different face for symbols.
I don't disagree with that point.
What's the point of using family Courier for one and Courier New for
the other? That's the question. Doesn't seem like a great choice.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread
* bug#24597: 25.1; Fonts used by default in Info
2016-10-03 16:35 ` Drew Adams
@ 2016-10-03 17:29 ` Eli Zaretskii
2016-10-03 17:53 ` Drew Adams
0 siblings, 1 reply; 11+ messages in thread
From: Eli Zaretskii @ 2016-10-03 17:29 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Drew Adams; +Cc: 24597
> Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2016 09:35:53 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Drew Adams <drew.adams@oracle.com>
> Cc: 24597@debbugs.gnu.org
>
> > > Why use, by default, two **slightly** different looking fonts? They are
> > > not different enough to make ‘...’ very noticeable. Nor are they the
> > > same. What's the point of this choice?
> >
> > The point is exactly to have a different face for symbols.
>
> I don't disagree with that point.
>
> What's the point of using family Courier for one and Courier New for
> the other? That's the question. Doesn't seem like a great choice.
I believe we don't specify Courier, it's just what Emacs picks up on a
typical Windows machine when we ask for a "Monospace Serif" font. See
the definition of the Info-quoted face in info.el.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread
* bug#24597: 25.1; Fonts used by default in Info
2016-10-03 17:29 ` Eli Zaretskii
@ 2016-10-03 17:53 ` Drew Adams
2016-10-03 18:26 ` Eli Zaretskii
0 siblings, 1 reply; 11+ messages in thread
From: Drew Adams @ 2016-10-03 17:53 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Eli Zaretskii; +Cc: 24597
> > > > Why use, by default, two **slightly** different looking fonts? They
> are
> > > > not different enough to make ‘...’ very noticeable. Nor are they the
> > > > same. What's the point of this choice?
> > >
> > > The point is exactly to have a different face for symbols.
> >
> > I don't disagree with that point.
> >
> > What's the point of using family Courier for one and Courier New for
> > the other? That's the question. Doesn't seem like a great choice.
>
> I believe we don't specify Courier, it's just what Emacs picks up on a
> typical Windows machine when we ask for a "Monospace Serif" font. See
> the definition of the Info-quoted face in info.el.
Hm. What I see is that we specify the "courier" family, not that we ask
for a "Monospace Serif" font:
(defface Info-quoted '((t :family "courier"))
"Face used for quoted elements.")
I know nothing about such things, but it seems odd that MS Windows
creates font Courier New, and seems to use it by default quite a bit,
and yet we tell it to use family "courier", and it ends up using
font Courier (if available), not Courier New.
I think maybe you are saying that there is no good way to make
the two use the same font by default. So be it, if so.
[I'd suggest using two fonts that are more different, by default.
For one thing, that would make clear to users that a face is involved.
Or if there is no policy to avoid color, I would use the same font
but a foreground color different from the default (black).]
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread
* bug#24597: 25.1; Fonts used by default in Info
2016-10-03 17:53 ` Drew Adams
@ 2016-10-03 18:26 ` Eli Zaretskii
2016-10-03 18:44 ` Andreas Schwab
0 siblings, 1 reply; 11+ messages in thread
From: Eli Zaretskii @ 2016-10-03 18:26 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Drew Adams, Nicolas Petton; +Cc: 24597
> Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2016 10:53:34 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Drew Adams <drew.adams@oracle.com>
> Cc: 24597@debbugs.gnu.org
>
> > I believe we don't specify Courier, it's just what Emacs picks up on a
> > typical Windows machine when we ask for a "Monospace Serif" font. See
> > the definition of the Info-quoted face in info.el.
>
> Hm. What I see is that we specify the "courier" family, not that we ask
> for a "Monospace Serif" font:
>
> (defface Info-quoted '((t :family "courier"))
> "Face used for quoted elements.")
That's strange: it's "courier" in 25.1, but the release branch says
fixed-pitch-serif, and the change was in May, so should have been in
the released Emacs 25.1.
Nicolas, can you shed some light on this?
> I know nothing about such things, but it seems odd that MS Windows
> creates font Courier New, and seems to use it by default quite a bit,
> and yet we tell it to use family "courier", and it ends up using
> font Courier (if available), not Courier New.
It chooses the first font that satisfies the request.
> [I'd suggest using two fonts that are more different, by default.
> For one thing, that would make clear to users that a face is involved.
That's what we do, except that this somehow didn't get into Emacs
25.1.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread
* bug#24597: 25.1; Fonts used by default in Info
2016-10-03 18:26 ` Eli Zaretskii
@ 2016-10-03 18:44 ` Andreas Schwab
2016-10-03 19:12 ` Eli Zaretskii
0 siblings, 1 reply; 11+ messages in thread
From: Andreas Schwab @ 2016-10-03 18:44 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Eli Zaretskii; +Cc: 24597, Nicolas Petton
On Okt 03 2016, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> wrote:
> That's strange: it's "courier" in 25.1, but the release branch says
> fixed-pitch-serif, and the change was in May, so should have been in
> the released Emacs 25.1.
It was installed after the release.
Andreas.
--
Andreas Schwab, schwab@linux-m68k.org
GPG Key fingerprint = 58CA 54C7 6D53 942B 1756 01D3 44D5 214B 8276 4ED5
"And now for something completely different."
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread
* bug#24597: 25.1; Fonts used by default in Info
2016-10-03 18:44 ` Andreas Schwab
@ 2016-10-03 19:12 ` Eli Zaretskii
2016-10-03 21:11 ` Andreas Schwab
0 siblings, 1 reply; 11+ messages in thread
From: Eli Zaretskii @ 2016-10-03 19:12 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Andreas Schwab; +Cc: 24597, nicolas
> From: Andreas Schwab <schwab@linux-m68k.org>
> Cc: Drew Adams <drew.adams@oracle.com>, Nicolas Petton <nicolas@petton.fr>, 24597@debbugs.gnu.org
> Date: Mon, 03 Oct 2016 20:44:27 +0200
>
> On Okt 03 2016, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> wrote:
>
> > That's strange: it's "courier" in 25.1, but the release branch says
> > fixed-pitch-serif, and the change was in May, so should have been in
> > the released Emacs 25.1.
>
> It was installed after the release.
Oh, "git show" surprisingly shows the original commit date for
cherry-picked commits, so I became confused.
Thanks.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread
* bug#24597: 25.1; Fonts used by default in Info
2016-10-03 19:12 ` Eli Zaretskii
@ 2016-10-03 21:11 ` Andreas Schwab
2016-10-04 6:15 ` Eli Zaretskii
0 siblings, 1 reply; 11+ messages in thread
From: Andreas Schwab @ 2016-10-03 21:11 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Eli Zaretskii; +Cc: 24597, nicolas
On Okt 03 2016, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> wrote:
>> From: Andreas Schwab <schwab@linux-m68k.org>
>> Cc: Drew Adams <drew.adams@oracle.com>, Nicolas Petton <nicolas@petton.fr>, 24597@debbugs.gnu.org
>> Date: Mon, 03 Oct 2016 20:44:27 +0200
>>
>> On Okt 03 2016, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> wrote:
>>
>> > That's strange: it's "courier" in 25.1, but the release branch says
>> > fixed-pitch-serif, and the change was in May, so should have been in
>> > the released Emacs 25.1.
>>
>> It was installed after the release.
>
> Oh, "git show" surprisingly shows the original commit date for
> cherry-picked commits, so I became confused.
It shows the author date. If you want to see the commit date use
--pretty=fuller.
Andreas.
--
Andreas Schwab, schwab@linux-m68k.org
GPG Key fingerprint = 58CA 54C7 6D53 942B 1756 01D3 44D5 214B 8276 4ED5
"And now for something completely different."
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread
* bug#24597: 25.1; Fonts used by default in Info
2016-10-03 21:11 ` Andreas Schwab
@ 2016-10-04 6:15 ` Eli Zaretskii
0 siblings, 0 replies; 11+ messages in thread
From: Eli Zaretskii @ 2016-10-04 6:15 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Andreas Schwab; +Cc: 24597, nicolas
> From: Andreas Schwab <schwab@linux-m68k.org>
> Cc: 24597@debbugs.gnu.org, nicolas@petton.fr
> Date: Mon, 03 Oct 2016 23:11:47 +0200
>
> > Oh, "git show" surprisingly shows the original commit date for
> > cherry-picked commits, so I became confused.
>
> It shows the author date.
Yes, but it never says that, nor attempts to display both dates when
they are different. How unhelpful.
> If you want to see the commit date use --pretty=fuller.
Thanks, the moment I understood the issue I did that in my
~/.gitconfig, so I won't ever need to remember this quirk.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread
* bug#24597: 25.1; Fonts used by default in Info
2016-10-03 15:48 bug#24597: 25.1; Fonts used by default in Info Drew Adams
2016-10-03 16:14 ` Eli Zaretskii
@ 2019-09-29 4:15 ` Stefan Kangas
1 sibling, 0 replies; 11+ messages in thread
From: Stefan Kangas @ 2019-09-29 4:15 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Eli Zaretskii; +Cc: 24597
fixed 24597 26.1
close 24597
quit
Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:
>> Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2016 09:35:53 -0700 (PDT)
>> From: Drew Adams <drew.adams@oracle.com>
>> Cc: 24597@debbugs.gnu.org
>>
>> > > Why use, by default, two **slightly** different looking fonts? They are
>> > > not different enough to make ‘...’ very noticeable. Nor are they the
>> > > same. What's the point of this choice?
>> >
>> > The point is exactly to have a different face for symbols.
>>
>> I don't disagree with that point.
>>
>> What's the point of using family Courier for one and Courier New for
>> the other? That's the question. Doesn't seem like a great choice.
>
> I believe we don't specify Courier, it's just what Emacs picks up on a
> typical Windows machine when we ask for a "Monospace Serif" font. See
> the definition of the Info-quoted face in info.el.
I believe that this was fixed in:
commit 36906806ccfc0e53f1d8c365ab0d7151288b7833
Author: Paul Eggert <eggert@cs.ucla.edu>
Date: Fri May 13 13:30:33 2016 -0700
Improve display of tex-verbatim and Info quoted
Which was part of Emacs 26.1. I'm therefore closing this bug as such.
Best regards,
Stefan Kangas
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread
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2016-10-03 15:48 bug#24597: 25.1; Fonts used by default in Info Drew Adams
2016-10-03 16:14 ` Eli Zaretskii
2016-10-03 16:35 ` Drew Adams
2016-10-03 17:29 ` Eli Zaretskii
2016-10-03 17:53 ` Drew Adams
2016-10-03 18:26 ` Eli Zaretskii
2016-10-03 18:44 ` Andreas Schwab
2016-10-03 19:12 ` Eli Zaretskii
2016-10-03 21:11 ` Andreas Schwab
2016-10-04 6:15 ` Eli Zaretskii
2019-09-29 4:15 ` Stefan Kangas
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