bug#29550: 27.0.50; `not-modified' should be disabled by default

bug#29550: 27.0.50; `not-modified' should be disabled by default

[Göktuğ Kayaalp]

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I suggest that the command ‘not-modified’, bound by default to ‘M-~’, be
disabled by default, as it can cause data loss and is easily triggered
accidentally, especially with the British keyboard layout where the key
with the apostrophe and the @ sign is adjacent to the key with the
number sign and tilde: Alt+Shift+<apostrophe> becomes M-@ (mark-word),
Alt+Shift+<number sign> becomes M-~ (not-modified).  When Emacs is quit
without further modifying a buffer marked clean with this function, the
changes are lost.  Certainly this scenario is not very probable, but
given that stuff like ‘upcase-region’ is disabled, I thought this one
can get disabled too.  I was nearly bitten by this, and I'd count myself
as a relatively experienced user :)

Find attached a patch disabling this command.


In GNU Emacs 27.0.50 (build 1, x86_64-pc-linux-gnu, GTK+ Version 3.22.25)
 of 2017-12-03 built on alpha
Repository revision: 9d7f0e27e0592132c1b5b9c280192333eaf288b8
Windowing system distributor 'The X.Org Foundation', version 11.0.11905000
System Description:	Ubuntu 17.10

Recent messages:
next-line: End of buffer
Modification-flag cleared
Saving file /home/g/co/Playground/django/Readme.org...
Wrote /home/g/co/Playground/django/Readme.org
Mark set
Saving file /home/g/co/Playground/django/Readme.org...
Wrote /home/g/co/Playground/django/Readme.org
Type "q" in help window to restore its previous buffer.
Mark set
C-, is undefined [2 times]

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Memory information:
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-- 
İ. Göktuğ Kayaalp	<http://www.gkayaalp.com/>
			 024C 30DD 597D 142B 49AC
			 40EB 465C D949 B101 2427


[-- Warning: decoded text below may be mangled, UTF-8 assumed --]
[-- Attachment #2: 0001-lisp-files.el-not-modified-Disable-this-function.patch --]
[-- Type: text/x-diff, Size: 748 bytes --]

From 8044f65e774d3a1640f1f2f67e044ffa75991206 Mon Sep 17 00:00:00 2001
From: =?UTF-8?q?=C4=B0=2E=20G=C3=B6ktu=C4=9F=20Kayaalp?= <self@gkayaalp.com>
Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2017 02:13:25 +0300
Subject: [PATCH] * lisp/files.el (not-modified) Disable this function.

---
 lisp/files.el | 2 ++
 1 file changed, 2 insertions(+)

diff --git a/lisp/files.el b/lisp/files.el
index 205001e5d5..0160ab9939 100644
--- a/lisp/files.el
+++ b/lisp/files.el
@@ -5301,6 +5301,8 @@ not-modified
                     "Modification-flag cleared"))
   (set-buffer-modified-p arg))
 
+(put 'not-modified 'disabled t)
+
 (defun toggle-read-only (&optional arg interactive)
   "Change whether this buffer is read-only."
   (declare (obsolete read-only-mode "24.3"))
-- 
2.14.1

bug#29550: 27.0.50; `not-modified' should be disabled by default

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Göktuğ Kayaalp <self@gkayaalp.com>
> Date: Mon, 04 Dec 2017 02:19:45 +0300
> 
> I suggest that the command ‘not-modified’, bound by default to ‘M-~’, be
> disabled by default, as it can cause data loss and is easily triggered
> accidentally

FWIW, I use this command many times every day, with no data loss.
Just one data point.

bug#29550: 27.0.50; `not-modified' should be disabled by default

[Glenn Morris]

Previous times this came up:
http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/bug-gnu-emacs/2005-04/msg00182.html
(a prolific and, err, idiosyncratic reporter)

http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2006-02/msg00414.html
(previous maintainer)

http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2006-02/msg00395.html
(previous+N maintainer)

Obviously, this calls for a poll!

(Please don't have a poll.)

bug#29550: 27.0.50; `not-modified' should be disabled by default

[Göktuğ Kayaalp]

On 2017-12-04 05:37 +02, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> wrote:
>> From: Göktuğ Kayaalp <self@gkayaalp.com>
>> Date: Mon, 04 Dec 2017 02:19:45 +0300
>> 
>> I suggest that the command ‘not-modified’, bound by default to ‘M-~’, be
>> disabled by default, as it can cause data loss and is easily triggered
>> accidentally
>
> FWIW, I use this command many times every day, with no data loss.
> Just one data point.
>

There probably are some disabled commands that each of us use all the
time.  ‘erase-buffer’, ‘upcase-region’ and ‘downcase-region’ are some
for me.  I think ‘not-modified’ is at least as risky as those commands
given it can be hit accidentally, maybe more easily, as I've said
previously, for someone using a keyboard where tilde is easily
(mis-)typed (in my British layout keyboard it's just to the left of the
big return button: jkl;' then #/~), and indeed would be «confusing for
beginners», quoting the disabled command buffer.  Also, from Glenn
Morris' message in this thread, there seems to be two other times in
history where a similar request to mine has been made.  If my patch is
refused I'll just have it disabled in my config, but I truly think that
this command, bound to a non-prefixed binding in the global map, is
potentially confusing and dangerous for who doesn't already know it,
beginner or not; if we have upcase/downcase-region disabled, this should
be disabled too.

-- 
İ. Göktuğ Kayaalp	<http://www.gkayaalp.com/>
			 024C 30DD 597D 142B 49AC
			 40EB 465C D949 B101 2427

bug#29550: 27.0.50; `not-modified' should be disabled by default

[Göktuğ Kayaalp]

On 2017-12-04 12:58 -05, Glenn Morris <rgm@gnu.org> wrote:
> Previous times this came up:
> http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/bug-gnu-emacs/2005-04/msg00182.html
> (a prolific and, err, idiosyncratic reporter)
>
> http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2006-02/msg00414.html
> (previous maintainer)

Here we have a *maintainer* that has lost some data accidentally hitting
this key.

> http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2006-02/msg00395.html
> (previous+N maintainer)
>
> Obviously, this calls for a poll!
>
> (Please don't have a poll.)

Why not?  It might be the case that this command has now became less
popular (for example it's not mentioned in the C-h t tutorial).  Given
how easy it's to re-enable it for its users, I see no reason for not
disabling it by default for protecting the uninitiated.  Quoting
"(emacs) Disabling":

,----
| Disabling a command means that invoking it interactively asks for
| confirmation from the user.  The purpose of disabling a command is to
| prevent users from executing it by accident; we do this for commands
| that might be confusing to the uninitiated.
`----

(on a side note, shouldn't ‘en/disable-command’ use ‘custom-file’ or
‘user-init-file’ instead of trying to locate .emacs itself?)

-- 
İ. Göktuğ Kayaalp	<http://www.gkayaalp.com/>
			 024C 30DD 597D 142B 49AC
			 40EB 465C D949 B101 2427

bug#29550: 27.0.50; `not-modified' should be disabled by default

[Lars Ingebrigtsen]

Glenn Morris <rgm@gnu.org> writes:

> Previous times this came up:
> http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/bug-gnu-emacs/2005-04/msg00182.html
> (a prolific and, err, idiosyncratic reporter)
>
> http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2006-02/msg00414.html
> (previous maintainer)
>
> http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2006-02/msg00395.html
> (previous+N maintainer)
>
> Obviously, this calls for a poll!
>
> (Please don't have a poll.)

:-)

I think it makes sense to have this command disabled by default.  It's a
lot more dangerous than several of the other commands that are
disabled...

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no

bug#29550: 27.0.50; `not-modified' should be disabled by default

[Stefan Kangas]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1110 bytes --]

tags 29550 + patch
quit

Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@gnus.org> writes:

> Glenn Morris <rgm@gnu.org> writes:
>
>> Previous times this came up:
>> http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/bug-gnu-emacs/2005-04/msg00182.html
>> (a prolific and, err, idiosyncratic reporter)
>>
>> http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2006-02/msg00414.html
>> (previous maintainer)
>>
>> http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2006-02/msg00395.html
>> (previous+N maintainer)
>>
>> Obviously, this calls for a poll!
>>
>> (Please don't have a poll.)
>
> :-)
>
> I think it makes sense to have this command disabled by default.  It's a
> lot more dangerous than several of the other commands that are
> disabled...

I agree with Lars here, and Stefan Monnier in the above thread, that
it should be disabled.

I don't really understand the basic controversy here.  It should at
worst be a minor inconvenience for anyone who do wish to use it, while
it could save many other users some big headaches.

So I'll just jump in at the deep end and ask... Are there any
objections to the attached patch?

Best regards,
Stefan Kangas

[-- Attachment #2: 0001-Disable-not-modified-command-by-default.patch --]
[-- Type: text/x-patch, Size: 892 bytes --]

From d676fbb543c04a7f258f564214812a627e609000 Mon Sep 17 00:00:00 2001
From: Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@gmail.com>
Date: Sun, 29 Sep 2019 02:02:06 +0200
Subject: [PATCH] Disable not-modified command by default

* lisp/files.el (not-modified): Disable command by
default.  (Bug#29550)
---
 lisp/files.el | 3 +++
 1 file changed, 3 insertions(+)

diff --git a/lisp/files.el b/lisp/files.el
index 09180fd555..f3bb23738d 100644
--- a/lisp/files.el
+++ b/lisp/files.el
@@ -5537,6 +5537,9 @@ clear-visited-file-modtime
 Next attempt to save will not complain of a discrepancy."
   (set-visited-file-modtime 0))
 
+;; This command could cause data loss for unsuspecting users.
+(put 'not-modified 'disabled t)
+
 (defun not-modified (&optional arg)
   "Mark current buffer as unmodified, not needing to be saved.
 With prefix ARG, mark buffer as modified, so \\[save-buffer] will save.
-- 
2.20.1

bug#29550: 27.0.50; `not-modified' should be disabled by default

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Stefan Kangas <stefan@marxist.se>
> Date: Sun, 29 Sep 2019 02:06:55 +0200
> Cc: Glenn Morris <rgm@gnu.org>, Göktuğ Kayaalp <self@gkayaalp.com>, 
> 	29550@debbugs.gnu.org, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org>
> 
> >> Previous times this came up:
> >> http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/bug-gnu-emacs/2005-04/msg00182.html
> >> (a prolific and, err, idiosyncratic reporter)
> >>
> >> http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2006-02/msg00414.html
> >> (previous maintainer)
> >>
> >> http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2006-02/msg00395.html
> >> (previous+N maintainer)
> >>
> >> Obviously, this calls for a poll!
> >>
> >> (Please don't have a poll.)
> >
> > :-)
> >
> > I think it makes sense to have this command disabled by default.  It's a
> > lot more dangerous than several of the other commands that are
> > disabled...
> 
> I agree with Lars here, and Stefan Monnier in the above thread, that
> it should be disabled.
> 
> I don't really understand the basic controversy here.  It should at
> worst be a minor inconvenience for anyone who do wish to use it, while
> it could save many other users some big headaches.

The basic controversy here, from my POV, is that I use "emacs -Q" a
lot when working on bug reports, and having this command disabled by
default will be a nuisance because I use it VERY often.

> So I'll just jump in at the deep end and ask... Are there any
> objections to the attached patch?

The previous discussions provide objections, don't they?

bug#29550: 27.0.50; `not-modified' should be disabled by default

[Stefan Kangas]

Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:

> The basic controversy here, from my POV, is that I use "emacs -Q" a
> lot when working on bug reports, and having this command disabled by
> default will be a nuisance because I use it VERY often.

OK, that makes sense.  If that's a common use case, disabling it by
default might be more trouble than it's worth.

I suggest to close this bug report as wontfix to make the decision
against this proposal clear.

Best regards,
Stefan Kangas

bug#29550: 27.0.50; `not-modified' should be disabled by default

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Stefan Kangas <stefan@marxist.se>
> Date: Sun, 29 Sep 2019 09:35:32 +0200
> Cc: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@gnus.org>, Glenn Morris <rgm@gnu.org>, Göktuğ Kayaalp <self@gkayaalp.com>, 
> 	29550@debbugs.gnu.org
> 
> I suggest to close this bug report as wontfix to make the decision
> against this proposal clear.

Fine with me, thanks.

bug#29550: 27.0.50; `not-modified' should be disabled by default

[Lars Ingebrigtsen]

Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:

> The basic controversy here, from my POV, is that I use "emacs -Q" a
> lot when working on bug reports, and having this command disabled by
> default will be a nuisance because I use it VERY often.

Taking us poor people who work on Emacs into consideration is nice, but
shouldn't we prioritise how this works for the users?

I mean, the same argumentation could be used for a number of disabled
commands, like `narrow-to-region' which I use a lot and always have to
re-enable when I'm working in -Q.  And `not-modified' is much more
dangerous for users than `narrow-to-region', especially since it's bound
to a key people may hit by accident (`M-~'), while `narrow-to-region' is
much more difficult to do so with.

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no

bug#29550: 27.0.50; `not-modified' should be disabled by default

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@gnus.org>
> Cc: Stefan Kangas <stefan@marxist.se>,  rgm@gnu.org,  self@gkayaalp.com,
>   29550@debbugs.gnu.org
> Date: Sun, 29 Sep 2019 10:01:48 +0200
> 
> Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:
> 
> > The basic controversy here, from my POV, is that I use "emacs -Q" a
> > lot when working on bug reports, and having this command disabled by
> > default will be a nuisance because I use it VERY often.
> 
> Taking us poor people who work on Emacs into consideration is nice, but
> shouldn't we prioritise how this works for the users?

I just explained what's the controversy, that's all.

bug#29550: 27.0.50; `not-modified' should be disabled by default

[Andreas Schwab]

On Sep 29 2019, Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@gnus.org> wrote:

> Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:
>
>> The basic controversy here, from my POV, is that I use "emacs -Q" a
>> lot when working on bug reports, and having this command disabled by
>> default will be a nuisance because I use it VERY often.
>
> Taking us poor people who work on Emacs into consideration is nice, but
> shouldn't we prioritise how this works for the users?

How about adding a command that reenables all disabled commands?

Andreas.

-- 
Andreas Schwab, schwab@linux-m68k.org
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"And now for something completely different."

bug#29550: 27.0.50; `not-modified' should be disabled by default

[Lars Ingebrigtsen]

Andreas Schwab <schwab@linux-m68k.org> writes:

> How about adding a command that reenables all disabled commands?

That's possible, but I was also wondering whether there should be an
"emacs -Q-but-not-so-much" (or whatever) switch to Emacs, or a standard
common-maintainer-things.el file one could load.

But that's probably an endless rabbit hole to go down into, so I think
we should just settle on saying "-l my-maintainer-things.el"
individually for whatever we think is too annoying to deal with when
testing with -Q.

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no

bug#29550: 27.0.50; `not-modified' should be disabled by default

[Göktuğ Kayaalp]

On 2019-09-29 12:05 +02, Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@gnus.org> wrote:
> Andreas Schwab <schwab@linux-m68k.org> writes:
>> How about adding a command that reenables all disabled commands?
> That's possible, but I was also wondering whether there should be an
> "emacs -Q-but-not-so-much" (or whatever) switch to Emacs, or a standard
> common-maintainer-things.el file one could load.
>
> But that's probably an endless rabbit hole to go down into, so I think
> we should just settle on saying "-l my-maintainer-things.el"
> individually for whatever we think is too annoying to deal with when
> testing with -Q.

Or, a flag like --maintainer-mode that enables all commands _and_
implies -Q and "-l $EMACS_MAINTAINER_RC" if found?

Frankly, I see no reason this issue is controversial: the command has
caused data loss for multiple people; accidental data loss and data
corruption is the worst thing that can happen to you in personal
computing, and accidentally hitting M-~ causes accidental data
loss/corruption in a very confusing way. "(emacs) Disabling" states:

> The purpose of disabling a command is to prevent users from executing
> it by accident; we do this for commands that might be confusing to the
> uninitiated.

In this light, it’s rather obvious what to do: protect users by
disabling this command.  The sole argument for keeping it enabled is
essentially the convenience of a single person.

Also, something like this

      emacs -Q -e "(enable-command 'not-modified)"

works for Eli’s case, you could just alias it to something like ‘emacsq’
or ‘emacs-Q’.

-- 
İ. Göktuğ Kayaalp	<https://www.gkayaalp.com/>
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bug#29550: 27.0.50; `not-modified' should be disabled by default

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Göktuğ Kayaalp <self@gkayaalp.com>
> Cc: schwab@linux-m68k.org, eliz@gnu.org,  stefan@marxist.se,
>   29550@debbugs.gnu.org
> Date: Fri, 04 Oct 2019 21:38:32 +0300
> 
> Also, something like this
> 
>       emacs -Q -e "(enable-command 'not-modified)"
> 
> works for Eli’s case, you could just alias it to something like ‘emacsq’
> or ‘emacs-Q’.

It's too late for me to re-train my muscle memory.

bug#29550: 27.0.50; `not-modified' should be disabled by default

[Lars Ingebrigtsen]

Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:

>> Also, something like this
>> 
>>       emacs -Q -e "(enable-command 'not-modified)"
>> 
>> works for Eli’s case, you could just alias it to something like ‘emacsq’
>> or ‘emacs-Q’.
>
> It's too late for me to re-train my muscle memory.

It seems that we're not going to convince Eli of the real dangers of the
`M-~' command for Emacs users, so I'm closing this bug report.

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no