From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: Eli Zaretskii Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.bugs Subject: bug#24510: 25.1; Info: searching for ` does not find what looks like ` Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2016 20:08:44 +0300 Message-ID: <83twd5b4yr.fsf@gnu.org> References: <<6905ca6f-0573-4a2b-b346-d5df47862e09@default> <<83intneq2g.fsf@gnu.org> <<7f9c8f95-a04d-4e94-9c17-8a348bf89215@default> <<83d1jvds1t.fsf@gnu.org> <83mviycxse.fsf@gnu.org> <8f6d6767-e5f4-79cc-ac3f-199cc58e92e2@gmail.com> <83fuopdaf2.fsf@gnu.org> <0913a9f7-519f-e48a-3132-3d1b16267851@gmail.com> Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii NNTP-Posting-Host: blaine.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: blaine.gmane.org 1474736969 4243 195.159.176.226 (24 Sep 2016 17:09:29 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@blaine.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2016 17:09:29 +0000 (UTC) Cc: 24510@debbugs.gnu.org To: =?UTF-8?Q?Cl=C3=A9ment?= Pit--Claudel Original-X-From: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sat Sep 24 19:09:25 2016 Return-path: Envelope-to: geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by blaine.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1bnqRt-0007Qh-4Z for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Sat, 24 Sep 2016 19:09:13 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:34812 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1bnqRr-00020A-CB for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Sat, 24 Sep 2016 13:09:11 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:59168) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1bnqRl-000201-GO for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sat, 24 Sep 2016 13:09:06 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1bnqRi-0007Y4-5t for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sat, 24 Sep 2016 13:09:05 -0400 Original-Received: from debbugs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.43]:56735) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1bnqRi-0007Y0-2L for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sat, 24 Sep 2016 13:09:02 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-debbugs by debbugs.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1bnqRh-0005pw-Vj for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sat, 24 Sep 2016 13:09:01 -0400 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Resent-From: Eli Zaretskii Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2016 17:09:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 24510 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: Original-Received: via spool by 24510-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B24510.147473692722410 (code B ref 24510); Sat, 24 Sep 2016 17:09:01 +0000 Original-Received: (at 24510) by debbugs.gnu.org; 24 Sep 2016 17:08:47 +0000 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:34692 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1bnqRS-0005pN-Mn for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 24 Sep 2016 13:08:46 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:39923) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1bnqRR-0005p9-6d for 24510@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 24 Sep 2016 13:08:45 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1bnqRI-0007Vs-Tz for 24510@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 24 Sep 2016 13:08:40 -0400 Original-Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::e]:40821) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1bnqRI-0007Vk-QV; Sat, 24 Sep 2016 13:08:36 -0400 Original-Received: from 84.94.185.246.cable.012.net.il ([84.94.185.246]:2043 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:128) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1bnqRF-0008Vk-01; Sat, 24 Sep 2016 13:08:35 -0400 In-reply-to: <0913a9f7-519f-e48a-3132-3d1b16267851@gmail.com> (message from =?UTF-8?Q?Cl=C3=A9ment?= Pit--Claudel on Sat, 24 Sep 2016 12:30:07 -0400) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 208.118.235.43 X-BeenThere: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org List-Id: "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "bug-gnu-emacs" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.bugs:123645 Archived-At: > Cc: 24510@debbugs.gnu.org > From: Clément Pit--Claudel > Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2016 12:30:07 -0400 > > I'm not sure it makes sense to equate "better" and "worse" with more or less coverage. Is Consolas worse than Courier New in terms of number of characters supported? Certainly. But then why is Emacs not defaulting to MingLiu or NSimSun? They are both monospace, both available in recent releases of Microsoft Windows, and they both cover multiple East-Asian scripts, (Courier New doesn't). On my system, MingLiu supports 28955 glyphs; over 23 times as many as Courier New. Not just the number of characters matters: the number of Unicode blocks also matters, maybe even more. Each block is some script, so supporting less blocks means less scripts supported by the default font. Emacs will have then look for a different font, which makes less pleasant display, creates text alignment problems, etc. > Do we have evidence that users of Emacs on Windows write significant amounts of code in Arabic, to the point that we would want to use Courier New as the default, instead of as a fallback? If so, do we have evidence that more code is written in Emacs in Arabic than in Chinese and Japanese? And finally, do we have evidence that users of scripts that Consolas does not support prefer having Courier New as the default, rather than Consolas with a fallback to Courier New, or MingLiu? I'm not sure I understand where these questions go. We don't have evidence either way, so the issues you raise cannot help us make the decision. I personally consider Consolas worse than Courier New, because Consolas's coverage is clearly biased towards European scripts. Also, Emacs has used Courier New for a couple of decades, so changing that would need a good reason, not some vague doubts that we cannot resolve based on data. > I'm not too familiar with editors on Windows. Do many of them default to Courier New? AFAICT Netbeans apparently does, but Atom doesn't (it uses Consolas), Visual Studio doesn't (it uses Consolas), Sublime Text doesn't (it uses Consolas), Eclipse doesn't (it changed from Courier New to Consolas in 2011), and Notepad++ doesn't (it changed from Courier New to Source Code Pro in 2015). What makes things that are acceptable for so many other editors non-starters for us? One reason is that Emacs has a wider range of different applications, where being able to support as many languages and scripts as possible is more important than in Studio or even Vim. E.g., at least some of the editors you mention are never used as email/news clients or Web browsers, where the ability to support as many scripts as possible is important.