From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Eli Zaretskii Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.bugs Subject: bug#52870: Is displaying bindings in describe-function useful? Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2021 09:15:31 +0200 Message-ID: <83tueqimwc.fsf@gnu.org> References: <83wnjnk0at.fsf@gnu.org> <83lf03jqvr.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="37806"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: 52870@debbugs.gnu.org To: Stefan Kangas Original-X-From: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Thu Dec 30 08:16:46 2021 Return-path: Envelope-to: geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1n2pg6-0009cW-1j for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org; Thu, 30 Dec 2021 08:16:46 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:44596 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1n2pg4-0008TP-K7 for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org; Thu, 30 Dec 2021 02:16:44 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:49906) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1n2pfO-0008T6-Q0 for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Thu, 30 Dec 2021 02:16:02 -0500 Original-Received: from debbugs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.43]:39381) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1n2pfO-00026r-GU for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Thu, 30 Dec 2021 02:16:02 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-debbugs by debbugs.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1n2pfO-0005ga-BP for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Thu, 30 Dec 2021 02:16:02 -0500 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Resent-From: Eli Zaretskii Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2021 07:16:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 52870 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs Original-Received: via spool by 52870-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B52870.164084853521814 (code B ref 52870); Thu, 30 Dec 2021 07:16:02 +0000 Original-Received: (at 52870) by debbugs.gnu.org; 30 Dec 2021 07:15:35 +0000 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:50927 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1n2pex-0005fl-Ev for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 30 Dec 2021 02:15:35 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:49056) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1n2peu-0005fR-BX for 52870@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 30 Dec 2021 02:15:33 -0500 Original-Received: from [2001:470:142:3::e] (port=36468 helo=fencepost.gnu.org) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1n2peo-0001yd-VH; Thu, 30 Dec 2021 02:15:26 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=MIME-version:References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From: Date; bh=cauKvT7yde32geC3zUxUpNQMLbiF9BUW/kvKblma7Z0=; b=T0V6r1nrywgihIsrA0f+ bb2hOK0zLQs9fMNx+VI3mk3eXhod32lR4JjTZzOa3NK/BlrBhHIK1GtVTbjEyFsVgStvjJc6aD3Ti Tr3teibwmhOSmu1mFXD1Qk9N7DucRFP7BSb/p4lwZy/82KJ8HFz90SC2T4XzJExw37APupQodABaR 293Z2XoBARfQ3REpzO5MeNo1ZC23sqz2IQUHZgxdQsZVrx3RvTmKJ/LVHtiZAJ2ZHrFn7P//bfbqI /3nyiTFSb8E5Ki3W+ogVcs4C47ee0uqCo0qD0u1eA8tTKvDXconcqqHDzBmr6CzCDlbsoVzo93KnE yF1azV3X/gwqeA==; Original-Received: from [87.69.77.57] (port=2739 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1n2peo-0006by-T3; Thu, 30 Dec 2021 02:15:27 -0500 In-Reply-To: (message from Stefan Kangas on Wed, 29 Dec 2021 12:19:32 -0800) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list X-BeenThere: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org List-Id: "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "bug-gnu-emacs" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.bugs:223416 Archived-At: > From: Stefan Kangas > Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2021 12:19:32 -0800 > Cc: 52870@debbugs.gnu.org > > Eli Zaretskii writes: > > > If by b) you mean to push the menu binding to the very end, where it > > will probably not seen at all, > > You would only ever need to see it in specific situations. You assume that people don't have any use for these bindings, but that is not necessarily so. > Furthermore, screens are at least 80x24 ( more these days, I guess) so > we can usually fit the entire documentation on one screen. I don't see how the screen size is relevant. The Help window can be a small window, and users (like me) sometimes limit them in their maximum size. So the last part can well be invisible unless one scrolls the window to the end. > I suspect for many users, that line will be worse than useless, as it is > hardly immediately clear what e.g. " > " is even supposed to mean. It looks like > line-noise. That is not a catastrophe. By contrast, _not_ seeing that information could be a catastrophe, in that the user may not be aware of the menu-bar binding. > BTW, it is even worse for describe-function: > > describe-function is an autoloaded interactive compiled Lisp function in > ‘help-fns.el’. > > It is bound to . > > We don't even get to see `C-h f' here. That's an issue I'd like us to fix, but it is not directly related to what we are discussing here. (And I cannot reproduce this on my system, FWIW: I do see "C-h f" and "F1 f".) There's no argument that keyboard bindings should be shown when they exist. However, I could turn the table and ask you whether you think it's reasonable to put the menu-bar bindings at the end for functions that have no other bindings but the menu-bar? If you do that, the user could think the command has no binding at all, until and unless he/she reads all the way to the end of the Help text. > > But banishing that to after the version where the command was > > introduced doesn't sound like something I could agree to by default. > > What is your rationale for this? Is it easier to accept if it is before > the "Probably introduced" line? The rationale is that hardly anyone ever looks at the "Probably introduced" line. Before it is slightly better, but not good enough: some doc strings are very long, so the menu-bar bindings will be pushed too far.