From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Eli Zaretskii Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.bugs Subject: bug#56508: Suggestions for the "Help" menu Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2022 15:54:52 +0300 Message-ID: <83sfn6xzhf.fsf@gnu.org> References: <83wncjxdcx.fsf@gnu.org> Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="17824"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: 56508@debbugs.gnu.org To: Stefan Kangas Original-X-From: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Tue Jul 12 15:07:33 2022 Return-path: Envelope-to: geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1oBFbx-0004RB-AS for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org; Tue, 12 Jul 2022 15:07:33 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:59774 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1oBFbw-0001LO-8L for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org; Tue, 12 Jul 2022 09:07:32 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:54832) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1oBFQo-0002oH-RT for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 12 Jul 2022 08:56:04 -0400 Original-Received: from debbugs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.43]:47994) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1oBFQo-0002OU-FY for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 12 Jul 2022 08:56:02 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-debbugs by debbugs.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1oBFQo-0001KX-EQ for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 12 Jul 2022 08:56:02 -0400 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Resent-From: Eli Zaretskii Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2022 12:56:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 56508 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs Original-Received: via spool by 56508-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B56508.16576305445078 (code B ref 56508); Tue, 12 Jul 2022 12:56:02 +0000 Original-Received: (at 56508) by debbugs.gnu.org; 12 Jul 2022 12:55:44 +0000 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:41889 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1oBFQW-0001Jq-3M for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 12 Jul 2022 08:55:44 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:39946) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1oBFQU-0001Jd-Pp for 56508@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 12 Jul 2022 08:55:43 -0400 Original-Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:41498) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1oBFQP-0002M7-Ef; Tue, 12 Jul 2022 08:55:37 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From:Date: mime-version; bh=lpPWmhSoIh30yP8W2Oq4JK7Q40P6Dx8n1T7YG08WWcw=; b=ScdxQmLx4Zcf sm6qFXQ7rfY/0XerYrydrS/7AzLHY+c2TOh+8V2fCet2JndVcYkUkG1SHXC/JJkGNy3bYTxqk7MKm ICqHz6AuYlmXfbcbzg/zGpY/e2qzRmNQvPY/jdndCfSNtSk5EvF81BsNTLDUd/eoSzYqrhaTlBNhu E1FfDN33+bE/gAOvyPZn0hBSE1HiINkmKemQtd1Z61qFxTU73MpvI8ZQEpmq8Csd5B5qyq9x6IcQm YqwiUu9fYK3ivmPDgukyFs/G6IJSjU2rRA8BYvXvbrEErHN4VY6TJss6mVPUEWxjgM/3UCJJl4lAD RO7aoXclV04IFXmNWgEsdA==; Original-Received: from [87.69.77.57] (port=1239 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1oBFPq-0006vG-Uj; Tue, 12 Jul 2022 08:55:04 -0400 In-Reply-To: (message from Stefan Kangas on Mon, 11 Jul 2022 22:16:00 -0500) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list X-BeenThere: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org List-Id: "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "bug-gnu-emacs" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.bugs:236764 Archived-At: > From: Stefan Kangas > Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2022 22:16:00 -0500 > Cc: 56508@debbugs.gnu.org > > Eli Zaretskii writes: > > >> From: Stefan Kangas > >> Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2022 21:04:51 -0500 > >> > >> Suggestions for the "Help" menu: > > > > I object. We just reshuffled that menu recently, let's not touch it > > for another major release or two. > > Sorry, I must have missed that we did that. In any case, I don't think > that is very good grounds for not making further improvements. Oh yes, it is: every significant change in the UI/UX means confusion for users who are used to the previous one. It is only kind to them to let them some time to adapt. > > Specific comments: > > > >> 1. Remove "Emacs FAQ". It is not nearly as up-to-date as the > >> manual, and most users these days will either find it by other > >> means or just search the web. > > > > So you are basically saying we don't need the FAQ? > > I'm saying that we don't need it in the menu (at least not in its > current shape). Many applications that are serious about their users have such a menu item on the Help menu. I see no reason why Emacs shouldn't. > >> 2. Remove "Emacs Psychotherapist". Sorry, but in terms of chatbots > >> there are *way* better ones out there these days. If anything, > >> move it to "Games". > > > > I object to making Emacs dead serious, because it will make it dead. > > Agreed, but there is plenty of space between "dead serious" and > "whimsical". it's a matter of personal opinion, so let's not argue about that. The important question is: does that single menu item do any harm? > >> Should it get a better name? > > > > Do you have any suggestions? > > "Show Multilanguage Status" is already an improvement. Not really: it isn't correct English, for starters. We could use m17n, but I doubt that would be clearer. Our current stopgap is to tell more in the help-echo (which you for some reason ignore in your criticism). > >> 5. "Describe Coding System Briefly" under "Describe" -- is this > >> useful? I just get this cryptic message here: > >> > >> F[U:],K[U:],T[U:],P>[=:],P<[=:], default F[U:],P>[U:],P<[U:] > > > > It's completely understandable here: File encoding, Keyboard encoding, > > Terminal encoding, Process encoding (input and output). > > I don't doubt that you understand it, but I don't think many new users > will. I don't understand almost any of it myself. For example, what > does "=:" mean? Do you understand those mnemonics on the mode line? Then why not here? And what does "default" mean? It means "default". Each coding-system has its default value and its current value. Cf buffer-file-coding-system and (default-value 'buffer-file-coding-system). > This looks like a power-users tool, not like something that belongs in > the help menu, to me. Power users sometimes need help, too. Of course, if you have a less cryptic way to say all that in a single line, I'm all ears.