From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Eli Zaretskii Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.bugs Subject: bug#9571: 24.0.50; user option to turn off bidi, please Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2011 18:03:16 +0300 Message-ID: <83r537qp1n.fsf@gnu.org> References: <87obybg01n.fsf@gmail.com> <834o03sgsu.fsf@gnu.org> <87d3erfrb5.fsf@gmail.com> <878vpffm4z.fsf@gmail.com> Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE X-Trace: dough.gmane.org 1316790227 28133 80.91.229.12 (23 Sep 2011 15:03:47 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2011 15:03:47 +0000 (UTC) Cc: 9571@debbugs.gnu.org, lekktu@gmail.com To: =?UTF-8?Q?=C5=A0t=C4=9Bp=C3=A1n_?= =?UTF-8?Q?N=C4=9Bmec?= Original-X-From: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Fri Sep 23 17:03:42 2011 Return-path: Envelope-to: geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([140.186.70.17]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1R77Hw-0000my-VH for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Fri, 23 Sep 2011 17:03:41 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:49528 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1R77Hv-0005ky-Tp for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Fri, 23 Sep 2011 11:03:39 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:36816) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1R77Ht-0005ke-0f for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 23 Sep 2011 11:03:38 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1R77Hr-0006md-Mb for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 23 Sep 2011 11:03:36 -0400 Original-Received: from debbugs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.43]:40788) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1R77Hr-0006mX-HE for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 23 Sep 2011 11:03:35 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-debbugs by debbugs.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1R77IH-0007JI-Pi for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 23 Sep 2011 11:04:01 -0400 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Resent-From: Eli Zaretskii Original-Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2011 15:04:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 9571 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: wontfix Original-Received: via spool by 9571-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B9571.131679022128072 (code B ref 9571); Fri, 23 Sep 2011 15:04:01 +0000 Original-Received: (at 9571) by debbugs.gnu.org; 23 Sep 2011 15:03:41 +0000 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1R77Hw-0007Ii-CA for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 23 Sep 2011 11:03:40 -0400 Original-Received: from mtaout22.012.net.il ([80.179.55.172]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1R77Hu-0007Ia-6H for 9571@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 23 Sep 2011 11:03:39 -0400 Original-Received: from conversion-daemon.a-mtaout22.012.net.il by a-mtaout22.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0LRZ00D00DRDKT00@a-mtaout22.012.net.il> for 9571@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 23 Sep 2011 18:02:40 +0300 (IDT) Original-Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([84.228.8.215]) by a-mtaout22.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0LRZ00CA8DSEX9G1@a-mtaout22.012.net.il>; Fri, 23 Sep 2011 18:02:40 +0300 (IDT) In-reply-to: <878vpffm4z.fsf@gmail.com> X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list Resent-Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2011 11:04:01 -0400 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 1) X-Received-From: 140.186.70.43 X-BeenThere: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org List-Id: "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.bugs:51720 Archived-At: > From: =C5=A0t=C4=9Bp=C3=A1n N=C4=9Bmec > Cc: 9571@debbugs.gnu.org > Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2011 15:01:32 +0200 >=20 > > I happen to be a documentation freak, and tried to do my best in > > documenting everything related to bidi. If you can suggest speci= fic > > changes to the user manual or NEWS about this, please do. Saying= in > > the manual that some feature "means trouble" is not something we = use > > to do, because users will say "if it's trouble, why don't you fix > > it?". We need to find a way of saying something useful that will= help > > users nonetheless. Suggestions are welcome. >=20 > When you take one example Lars reported recently -- a buffer where = the > current bidi code wasn't able to diagnose the paragraph direction > properly (or something) in a relatively untypical buffer (a lot of = long > lines without paragraph breaks). It made the buffer unusable. Now, = how > would a user diagnose or solve this issue? How would the current > documentation help him in doing so? Documentation cannot help with this, because it was a bug. It happened in a situation that I never envisioned, and that took severa= l months to bump into, since bidi-display-reordering was turned on. Th= e bug was fixed since then. I expect users who bump into such issues, and cannot find anything to help them in the manual, to ask for help on help-gnu-emacs or on emacs-devel. Then they will be provided with workarounds if they are available, or with patches if not. IOW, treat that as we always do with bugs. I also expect such issues to be extremely rare and marginal by the en= d of the pretest, provided that people report the problems. > I think unless you're pretty sure such problems are not likely to o= ccur > again, you should at least say (in NEWS if not in the manual; I wou= ld > probably check the NEWS first in such situation anyway) that such t= hings > can happen and how to work around it I wouldn't know what to say in a way that will be useful. Bugs that are reported are being fixed fairly quickly, so describing them would be an exercise in futility. Bugs that were not yet reported are unknown and cannot be described. The assumption that every single slowdown and every display-related bug in Emacs 24 are due to the bidirectional display engine is profoundly false, at least lately, so saying "as soon as you see any problem whatsoever, turn off bidi" would be crying wolf for no good reason. IOW, I feel that the issue is blown out of proportions for reason I cannot understand. By and large, THERE IS NO PROBLEM. Fear of problems, maybe. But no real problems, at least not reported ones.