* bug#45806: 26.3; `menu-bar-separator' @ 2021-01-12 0:32 Drew Adams 2021-01-12 15:04 ` Eli Zaretskii 0 siblings, 1 reply; 7+ messages in thread From: Drew Adams @ 2021-01-12 0:32 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 45806 This variable (defconst) doesn't seem to be documented anywhere. It seems to be used for menus in general; it doesn't seem to be tied to the menu-bar in any way. And its only doc is the doc string, which says only "Separator for menus." Could it be renamed to remove any mention of the menu-bar (keeping the old name as alias)? How is it actually used? Is it used only in (some?) toolkits? It's a defconst (why?), so presumably you shouldn't change it. But changing it doesn't seem to have any effect anyway, in MS Windows. If this is hard-coded then why is it even needed? In GNU Emacs 26.3 (build 1, x86_64-w64-mingw32) of 2019-08-29 Repository revision: 96dd0196c28bc36779584e47fffcca433c9309cd Windowing system distributor `Microsoft Corp.', version 10.0.18362 Configured using: `configure --without-dbus --host=x86_64-w64-mingw32 --without-compress-install 'CFLAGS=-O2 -static -g3'' ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 7+ messages in thread
* bug#45806: 26.3; `menu-bar-separator' 2021-01-12 0:32 bug#45806: 26.3; `menu-bar-separator' Drew Adams @ 2021-01-12 15:04 ` Eli Zaretskii 0 siblings, 0 replies; 7+ messages in thread From: Eli Zaretskii @ 2021-01-12 15:04 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Drew Adams; +Cc: 45806 > Date: Mon, 11 Jan 2021 16:32:31 -0800 (PST) > From: Drew Adams <drew.adams@oracle.com> > > This variable (defconst) doesn't seem to be documented anywhere. It has a doc string, and if you look at its usage, this is all you'll ever need. > It seems to be used for menus in general; it doesn't seem to be tied to > the menu-bar in any way. And its only doc is the doc string, which says > only "Separator for menus." Could it be renamed to remove any mention > of the menu-bar (keeping the old name as alias)? Sorry, this name is with us for too long to rename it now. > How is it actually used? Is it used only in (some?) toolkits? Look at menu-bar.el (obviously), it's used all over there. On all the toolkits and also in no-toolkit builds. > It's a defconst (why?), so presumably you shouldn't change it. But > changing it doesn't seem to have any effect anyway, in MS Windows. If > this is hard-coded then why is it even needed? See above. If you really want to see the effect of changing it (why?), I think you will need to rebuild Emacs. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 7+ messages in thread
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* bug#45806: 26.3; `menu-bar-separator' [not found] ` <<83pn2adwn1.fsf@gnu.org> @ 2021-01-12 16:34 ` Drew Adams 2021-01-12 17:03 ` Eli Zaretskii 0 siblings, 1 reply; 7+ messages in thread From: Drew Adams @ 2021-01-12 16:34 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Eli Zaretskii, Drew Adams; +Cc: 45806 > Sorry, this name is with us for too long to rename it now. Not a great reason not to rename and alias. > > How is it actually used? Is it used only in (some?) toolkits? > > Look at menu-bar.el (obviously), it's used all over there. On all the > toolkits and also in no-toolkit builds. I already looked at all occurrences in the Lisp sources. AFAICT, _none_ of those occurrences show how it's used in the sense of explaining its effect. I'm looking for info about its implementation and what it actually does - info presumably available in some C code. HOW it does what it does. See also the question about whether it's used only by toolkits. In GUI Emacs on MS Windows, for instance, the effect of a separator is a continuous separator line, while the effect with `emacs -nw' seems to be a pair of hyphen chars. > > It's a defconst (why?), so presumably you shouldn't change it. But > > changing it doesn't seem to have any effect anyway, in MS Windows. If > > this is hard-coded then why is it even needed? > > See above. If you really want to see the effect of changing it > (why?), I think you will need to rebuild Emacs. You think so? How about having the doc specify that, or whatever the actual behavior is. FWIW, this bug report is a result of seeing this user question: "Is it possible to change the menu separator?" https://emacs.stackexchange.com/q/62717/105 ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 7+ messages in thread
* bug#45806: 26.3; `menu-bar-separator' 2021-01-12 16:34 ` Drew Adams @ 2021-01-12 17:03 ` Eli Zaretskii 2021-01-12 18:09 ` Drew Adams 0 siblings, 1 reply; 7+ messages in thread From: Eli Zaretskii @ 2021-01-12 17:03 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Drew Adams; +Cc: 45806-done > Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2021 08:34:04 -0800 (PST) > From: Drew Adams <drew.adams@oracle.com> > Cc: 45806@debbugs.gnu.org > > > Sorry, this name is with us for too long to rename it now. > > Not a great reason not to rename and alias. Why am I not surprised that you don't accept the judgment of the project maintainers? > > > How is it actually used? Is it used only in (some?) toolkits? > > > > Look at menu-bar.el (obviously), it's used all over there. On all the > > toolkits and also in no-toolkit builds. > > I already looked at all occurrences in the Lisp sources. Then I really wonder why are you asking all these questions. > AFAICT, _none_ of those occurrences show how it's used > in the sense of explaining its effect. You see the effect as soon as you look at the menus which use it. > I'm looking for info about its implementation and what > it actually does - info presumably available in some C > code. HOW it does what it does. The HOW is always in the code, so filing a bug about the documentation is not going to reveal that: we won't describe the implementation in the documentation. So I'm closing this bug report. > See also the question about whether it's used only by > toolkits. In GUI Emacs on MS Windows, for instance, > the effect of a separator is a continuous separator > line, while the effect with `emacs -nw' seems to be a > pair of hyphen chars. Each toolkit/UI variant produces its particular visual, but they all do, and the effect is the same: to visually separate between groups of menu items. > > See above. If you really want to see the effect of changing it > > (why?), I think you will need to rebuild Emacs. > > You think so? How about having the doc specify that, > or whatever the actual behavior is. I see no reason. You are looking for the kind of internal details that are always found in the code. > FWIW, this bug report is a result of seeing this user > question: > > "Is it possible to change the menu separator?" > > https://emacs.stackexchange.com/q/62717/105 Not every question means something is wrong with our documentation. Sometimes the answer is "use the source, Luc". ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 7+ messages in thread
* bug#45806: 26.3; `menu-bar-separator' 2021-01-12 17:03 ` Eli Zaretskii @ 2021-01-12 18:09 ` Drew Adams 2021-01-12 18:22 ` Eli Zaretskii 2021-01-12 18:23 ` Eli Zaretskii 0 siblings, 2 replies; 7+ messages in thread From: Drew Adams @ 2021-01-12 18:09 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Eli Zaretskii; +Cc: 45806-done > > > Sorry, this name is with us for too long to rename it now. > > > > Not a great reason not to rename and alias. IMHO. > Why am I not surprised that you don't accept the judgment of the > project maintainers? Why am I not surprised that you are personally hostile, and interpret an opinion as non-acceptance of a decision? Can we not politely agree to disagree about what should be done, without your going off again on your claims of insubordination? ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 7+ messages in thread
* bug#45806: 26.3; `menu-bar-separator' 2021-01-12 18:09 ` Drew Adams @ 2021-01-12 18:22 ` Eli Zaretskii 2021-01-12 18:23 ` Eli Zaretskii 1 sibling, 0 replies; 7+ messages in thread From: Eli Zaretskii @ 2021-01-12 18:22 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Drew Adams; +Cc: 45806 > Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2021 10:09:08 -0800 (PST) > From: Drew Adams <drew.adams@oracle.com> > Cc: 45806-done@debbugs.gnu.org > > > Why am I not surprised that you don't accept the judgment of the > > project maintainers? > > Why am I not surprised that you are personally > hostile, and interpret an opinion as non-acceptance > of a decision? You expressed your opinion, heard is rejection, and you keep arguing. Are you aware that every one of your messages with repetitive disagreements means another message I need to read and consider? Do you think I have lots of free time for doing that? > Can we not politely agree to disagree about what > should be done We can, but one message from each side should be enough for that. There should be no need for "I heard you, but I still disagree". It's a waste of time and energy. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 7+ messages in thread
* bug#45806: 26.3; `menu-bar-separator' 2021-01-12 18:09 ` Drew Adams 2021-01-12 18:22 ` Eli Zaretskii @ 2021-01-12 18:23 ` Eli Zaretskii 1 sibling, 0 replies; 7+ messages in thread From: Eli Zaretskii @ 2021-01-12 18:23 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Drew Adams; +Cc: 45806 > Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2021 10:09:08 -0800 (PST) > From: Drew Adams <drew.adams@oracle.com> > Cc: 45806-done@debbugs.gnu.org > > > Why am I not surprised that you don't accept the judgment of the > > project maintainers? > > Why am I not surprised that you are personally > hostile, and interpret an opinion as non-acceptance > of a decision? You expressed your opinion, heard its rejection, but you keep arguing. That generates more messages than necessary and increase the workload for no good reason, while telling nothing new. Why increase the noise level here? > Can we not politely agree to disagree about what > should be done We can, but one message from each side should be enough for that. There should be no need for "I heard you, but I still disagree". It's a waste of time and energy. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 7+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2021-01-12 18:23 UTC | newest] Thread overview: 7+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed) -- links below jump to the message on this page -- 2021-01-12 0:32 bug#45806: 26.3; `menu-bar-separator' Drew Adams 2021-01-12 15:04 ` Eli Zaretskii [not found] <<73e90890-b70a-4eb8-aa9e-d40959d1e1ec@default> [not found] ` <<83pn2adwn1.fsf@gnu.org> 2021-01-12 16:34 ` Drew Adams 2021-01-12 17:03 ` Eli Zaretskii 2021-01-12 18:09 ` Drew Adams 2021-01-12 18:22 ` Eli Zaretskii 2021-01-12 18:23 ` Eli Zaretskii
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