From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Eli Zaretskii Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.bugs Subject: bug#50936: "(emacs) Help" does say how to find external packages Date: Fri, 01 Oct 2021 15:31:20 +0300 Message-ID: <83mtntdizr.fsf@gnu.org> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="4071"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: 50936@debbugs.gnu.org To: Stefan Kangas Original-X-From: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Fri Oct 01 14:32:46 2021 Return-path: Envelope-to: geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1mWHiY-0000tW-A1 for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org; Fri, 01 Oct 2021 14:32:46 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:48886 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mWHiW-00058S-FD for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org; Fri, 01 Oct 2021 08:32:44 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:44020) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mWHhq-00057K-R4 for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 01 Oct 2021 08:32:02 -0400 Original-Received: from debbugs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.43]:43340) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mWHhq-0005xo-HV for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 01 Oct 2021 08:32:02 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-debbugs by debbugs.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mWHhq-0008QB-7j for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 01 Oct 2021 08:32:02 -0400 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Resent-From: Eli Zaretskii Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Fri, 01 Oct 2021 12:32:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 50936 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs Original-Received: via spool by 50936-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B50936.163309150732351 (code B ref 50936); Fri, 01 Oct 2021 12:32:02 +0000 Original-Received: (at 50936) by debbugs.gnu.org; 1 Oct 2021 12:31:47 +0000 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:54886 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mWHhb-0008Pj-K2 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 01 Oct 2021 08:31:47 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:38836) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mWHha-0008PX-AA for 50936@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 01 Oct 2021 08:31:46 -0400 Original-Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:33450) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mWHhU-0005fm-Qi; Fri, 01 Oct 2021 08:31:40 -0400 Original-Received: from 84.94.185.95.cable.012.net.il ([84.94.185.95]:1253 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mWHhU-0007lV-CN; Fri, 01 Oct 2021 08:31:40 -0400 In-Reply-To: (message from Stefan Kangas on Fri, 1 Oct 2021 13:48:57 +0200) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list X-BeenThere: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org List-Id: "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "bug-gnu-emacs" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.bugs:216033 Archived-At: > From: Stefan Kangas > Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2021 13:48:57 +0200 > > In (info "(emacs) Help"), I read: > > If you are looking for a certain feature, but don’t know what it is > called or where to look, we recommend three methods. First, try an > apropos command, then try searching the manual index, then look in the > FAQ and the package keywords. > [...] > ‘C-h p’ > This displays the available Emacs packages based on keywords. > *Note Package Keywords::. > > The problem with this is that packages from GNU ELPA and NonGNU ELPA > aren't listed here, so the better place to look should actually be > 'M-x list-packages'. Because that's where you'll find important modes > for programming languages, etc. "Modes" and "features" are not the same. The latter refers to features built into Emacs, i.e. to bundled packages. If that isn't clear from the text, we could clarify that, although it should be quite obvious that an Emacs manual talks about bundled features. > I'm not sure if the recommendation should be changed, or simply > amended to also mention M-x list-packages. It's okay to also mention list-packages, but if so, the text should explicitly say that it's for features and packages not included in the core distribution. More importantly, I think we should seriously consider whether such text has its place in that section. That section is supposed to be a cookbook for quickly and efficiently find Emacs features, so it should be limited to methods and commands that accurate, in the sense that they don't present the user with long lists of potential hits. By contrast, list-packages shows a very long list of packages (more than 400 as of this writing), which can easily overwhelm the user. Even "C-h p" doesn't show such long lists (the longest has 50 items), and it is already too long, which is why it's the last in the list of recommended methods. > Or perhaps finder should list packages that are not installed? Wouldn't that make "C-h p" less efficient, for the reason pointed out above?