From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Eli Zaretskii Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.bugs Subject: bug#53207: 28.0.91; create-lockfiles nil breaks file change detection Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2022 08:43:14 +0200 Message-ID: <83mtk03zlp.fsf@gnu.org> References: <509ddd0f-589c-45b0-9b60-5820f4c1d716@www.fastmail.com> <83bl0g6f29.fsf@gnu.org> <3759fdad-fb95-4af8-b2bf-146abb81eb3d@www.fastmail.com> <83pmow4r9q.fsf@gnu.org> <655743d1-b695-4d22-ae21-cf195434a880@www.fastmail.com> Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="34540"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: 53207@debbugs.gnu.org To: "Jay Berkenbilt" Original-X-From: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Thu Jan 13 07:59:13 2022 Return-path: Envelope-to: geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1n7u4m-0008md-Ng for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org; Thu, 13 Jan 2022 07:59:12 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:37842 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1n7u4l-0003V8-9B for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org; Thu, 13 Jan 2022 01:59:11 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:33976) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1n7tq7-00074V-GX for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Thu, 13 Jan 2022 01:44:07 -0500 Original-Received: from debbugs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.43]:38674) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1n7tq6-0007rE-4Q for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Thu, 13 Jan 2022 01:44:02 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-debbugs by debbugs.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1n7tq6-0006WJ-3K for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Thu, 13 Jan 2022 01:44:02 -0500 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Resent-From: Eli Zaretskii Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2022 06:44:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 53207 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs Original-Received: via spool by 53207-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B53207.164205620924996 (code B ref 53207); Thu, 13 Jan 2022 06:44:02 +0000 Original-Received: (at 53207) by debbugs.gnu.org; 13 Jan 2022 06:43:29 +0000 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:59805 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1n7tpZ-0006V5-JH for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 13 Jan 2022 01:43:29 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:33072) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1n7tpW-0006Uk-W2 for 53207@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 13 Jan 2022 01:43:28 -0500 Original-Received: from [2001:470:142:3::e] (port=38222 helo=fencepost.gnu.org) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1n7tpR-0007mg-JT; Thu, 13 Jan 2022 01:43:21 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From:Date: mime-version; bh=+QKHmIBbuIkKQG4mXw9oS+L9rTa5BW1tatH1D9UBZwg=; b=AnGyU5IcV6WT FkrdZGcXr6PQYZ9Grl2G0ww6ksjrTiFpO9ayMQvkgyExgp7tkE15TkSg+DeNmJKTD+ka6tBaAwega Putq5Ts0P3+xZ2v89BA7QxWTFp+DXaai6PhI6rsNYQ0y43eNjUKRznoAe4XNKy3SMhgyIDouQuzj6 FFraMA9IxR06gMsGSquAB5+QQVOaN+MAkEWNwtA27aF3laWFYE6hKqZrzl7UXMJMkPPF6hvJFTonB +ySvRUeiNRL+UY6i9xJaAGGegsEbYzJMclR6IoJXkohL9nd0Fjang9zr13d52p52lPubQgoi485GK P1a09coCRzosnW2Fr8Uh0w==; Original-Received: from [87.69.77.57] (port=4076 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1n7tpN-0001NW-Fh; Thu, 13 Jan 2022 01:43:21 -0500 In-Reply-To: <655743d1-b695-4d22-ae21-cf195434a880@www.fastmail.com> (ejb@ql.org) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list X-BeenThere: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org List-Id: "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "bug-gnu-emacs" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.bugs:224063 Archived-At: > Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2022 16:35:15 -0500 > From: "Jay Berkenbilt" > Cc: 53207@debbugs.gnu.org > > > > > My suggestion is to stop setting create-lockfiles to a nil value. Why > > > > is the non-nil value a problem? > > > > > > Emacs lockfiles are dangling symbolic links. Some tools and systems don't > > > like those. > > > > Isn't that the reason we introduced lock-file-name-transforms? > > Perhaps so, but this misses the point. My point was to say that if you want collision detection, you should turn on create-lockfiles. You said this could cause problems with some tools, and I then pointed out that Emacs 28 has a new feature to help you solve that side effect, so that you could use locking again. > I am pointing out at there is an undocumented, > perhaps undesirable change of behavior that needs to be either fixed or documented. I understand, but that's a separate, albeit related, issue. I was trying to help you to get collision detection back. Your original report seemed to ask how to do that, so I tried to answer that part. > If the change of behavior is intentional, then it should be documented. We are discussing this, and will document if that's the conclusion. > It just seems strange that emacs is perfectly capable of detecting when a file was changed > outside of emacs without a lockfile but doesn't do this check if it's not also creating lockfiles. Once again, this is not about the lockfiles, this is about the entire feature of detection of editing collisions. The variable's name is a misnomer.