bug#13731: 24.3.50; C-h N -- Outline navigation Fails

bug#13731: 24.3.50; C-h N -- Outline navigation Fails

[raman]

Filing this using report-emacs-bug as requested by Glenn.

Steps to reproduce:

C-h N M-n jumps to the end of the buffer when invoked at the top
of t

he buffer.




In GNU Emacs 24.3.50.2 (i686-pc-linux-gnu, GTK+ Version 2.16.1)
 of 2013-02-15 on labrador
System Description:	Ubuntu 9.04

Configured using:
 `configure --prefix=/usr/local'

Important settings:
  value of $LANG: en_US.UTF-8
  locale-coding-system: utf-8-unix
  default enable-multibyte-characters: t

Major mode: Outline

Minor modes in effect:
  recentf-mode: t
  gpm-mouse-mode: t
  diff-auto-refine-mode: t
  global-semantic-idle-summary-mode: t
  global-semanticdb-minor-mode: t
  semantic-mode: t
  savehist-mode: t
  ido-everywhere: t
  display-time-mode: t
  auto-insert-mode: t
  jabber-activity-mode: t
  outline-minor-mode: t
  dynamic-completion-mode: t
  dired-omit-mode: t
  desktop-save-mode: t
  shell-dirtrack-mode: t
  global-voice-lock-mode: t
  voice-lock-mode: t
  tooltip-mode: t
  mouse-wheel-mode: t
  tool-bar-mode: t
  file-name-shadow-mode: t
  global-font-lock-mode: t
  font-lock-mode: t
  auto-composition-mode: t
  auto-encryption-mode: t
  auto-compression-mode: t
  buffer-read-only: t
  auto-fill-function: do-auto-fill
  transient-mark-mode: t
  view-mode: t

Recent input:
RET ESC m l e m a TAB - TAB RET C-x o ESC < C-e s ESC 
< C-e s C-n C-e e ESC b C-e w C-e d 3 C-n C-n C-e ( 
RET a n TAB C-g C-e ( RET C-e ( a n TAB f TAB RET 1 
0 0 , SPC 1 0 0 RET ESC m C-e ( RET C-n C-e m C-x k 
RET ESC m C-n C-o C-n C-n C-n C-n C-n C-n ESC < C-n 
C-n o C-n C-n C-n C-n C-n C-n C-n C-n C-n C-n C-n C-n 
C-n C-n C-n C-n C-n C-n C-n C-n C-n C-n C-n C-n C-n 
C-n C-x o C-n C-e m C-n C-n C-s n e w s ESC m C-o C-n 
C-n C-n C-n C-n C-n C-e d 3 ESC m C-n C-n C-n C-n C-n 
C-n C-n C-n C-n C-n C-p C-p C-p C-e m C-n C-e s C-n 
C-n C-n C-x o C-n C-p C-o C-h N ESC < ESC x o u t l 
i n e SPC n e x t SPC v i i ESC DEL v i s i TAB RET 
C-e l ESC n ESC n ESC [ [ D C-h N ESC n ESC < ESC n 
C-e C-l ESC m C-n C-n ESC < ESC x r e p o r t SPC e 
m a TAB b TAB RET

Recent messages:
Mark saved where search started
Getting mail...done
Set speech rate to level 3
ad-Advice-signal: End of buffer [2 times]
View mode: type C-h for help, h for commands, q to quit.
You can run the command `outline-next-visible-heading' with  meta n 
Note: file is write protected
View mode: type C-h for help, h for commands, q to quit.
Line 2691
ad-Advice-signal: End of buffer [2 times]

Load-path shadows:
/home/raman/.emacs.d/elpa/ess-20130119.1705/.dir-locals hides /home/raman/.emacs.d/elpa/kill-ring-search-20110605.1744/.dir-locals
/home/raman/.emacs.d/elpa/ess-20130119.1705/.dir-locals hides /home/raman/.emacs.d/elpa/magit-20130123.1617/.dir-locals
/home/raman/emacs/lisp/site-lisp/gm/g-utils hides /home/raman/emacs/lisp/emacspeak/lisp/g-client/g-utils
/home/raman/emacs/lisp/site-lisp/vm/lisp/tapestry hides /home/raman/emacs/lisp/emacspeak/lisp/tapestry
/home/raman/.emacs.d/elpa/fold-dwim-20120926.1236/fold-dwim hides /home/raman/emacs/lisp/site-lisp/fold-dwim
/home/raman/emacs/lisp/emacspeak/lisp/tetris hides /usr/local/share/emacs/24.3.50/lisp/play/tetris
/home/raman/.emacs.d/elpa/ess-20130119.1705/.dir-locals hides /usr/local/share/emacs/24.3.50/lisp/gnus/.dir-locals
/home/raman/.emacs.d/elpa/emms-20121219.1939/tq hides /usr/local/share/emacs/24.3.50/lisp/emacs-lisp/tq

Features:
(shadow emacsbug emacspeak-hide emacspeak-url-template two-column
iso-transl vm-sort vm-virtual vm-delete tapestry org-wl org-w3m
org-vm org-rmail org-mhe org-mew org-irc org-jsinfo org-infojs
org-html org-exp ob-exp org-exp-blocks org-agenda org-info
org-gnus org-docview org-bibtex emacspeak-bibtex bibtex org-bbdb
epa-file emacspeak-flyspell flyspell emacspeak-ispell ispell
mailalias vm-reply vm-rfaddons vm-menu vm-window vm-toolbar
vm-mouse vm-page vm-minibuf emacspeak-vm vm emacspeak-view view
amixer recentf tree-widget pcmpl-unix misearch multi-isearch rect
w3-style network-stream url-http url-gw w3-imenu emacspeak-imenu
imenu w3-speak-table w3-structure w3-hot mm-archive
emacspeak-message message mml mml-sec gmm-utils mailheader
url-file url-dired url-cache w3-toolbar w3-speak w3-forms
w3-emacs w3-props url-auth emacspeak-websearch emacspeak-w3search
jabber-bookmarks jabber-private emacspeak-wizards emacspeak-eterm
term ehelp emacspeak-texinfo texinfo emacspeak-table-ui
emacspeak-table emacspeak-find-dired find-dired eldoc lisp-mnt
t-mouse elisp-slime-nav etags cal-china cal-bahai cal-islam
cal-hebrew holidays hol-loaddefs gcal g-app mule-util cal-move
server w3-wget wget wget-sysdep emms-info-libtag emms-player-vlc
emms-player-mplayer emms-setup emms-playlist-limit emms-volume
emms-volume-amixer emms-i18n emms-history emms-score
emms-stream-info emms-metaplaylist-mode emms-bookmarks
emms-lastfm-client emms-cue emms-mode-line-icon emms-browser sort
emms-playlist-sort emms-last-played emms-player-xine
emms-player-mpd tq emms-playing-time emms-lyrics emms-url
emms-player-simple emms-streams emms-tag-editor emms-mark
emms-mode-line emms-cache emms-info-ogginfo emms-info-mp3info
emms-info later-do emms-playlist-mode emms-source-playlist
emms-source-file emacspeak-emms emms emms-compat
emacspeak-dictionary dictionary link connection emacspeak-reftex
reftex reftex-vars egg emacspeak-diff-mode diff-mode ffap
ediff-merg ediff-diff ediff-wind ediff-help ediff-util
emacspeak-ediff ediff-mult ediff-init ediff electric
Save-visited-files-autoloads anaphora-autoloads
android-mode-autoloads auctex-autoloads emacspeak-auctex tex-site
bash-completion-autoloads bm-autoloads bookmark+-autoloads
browse-kill-ring-autoloads browse-url-dwim-autoloads
buffer-utils-autoloads c-eldoc-autoloads cl-format-autoloads
cljdoc-autoloads clojure-project-mode-autoloads
clojurescript-mode-autoloads closure-lint-mode-autoloads
closure-template-html-mode-autoloads color-theme-autoloads
cppcheck-autoloads crontab-mode-autoloads csv-mode-autoloads
dart-mode-autoloads deft-autoloads dictionary-autoloads
dired+-autoloads dired-details+-autoloads dired-details-autoloads
dired-isearch-autoloads dired-single-autoloads dizzee-autoloads
doc-mode-autoloads dotassoc-autoloads durendal-autoloads
clojure-mode-autoloads ecb-snapshot-autoloads echo-pick-autoloads
edbi-autoloads egg-autoloads eimp-autoloads ein-autoloads
auto-complete-autoloads elisp-cache-autoloads
elisp-slime-nav-autoloads emms-autoloads epc-autoloads
ctable-autoloads concurrent-autoloads deferred-autoloads
epoch-view-autoloads eshell-info-autoloads emacspeak-info info
esxml-autoloads expand-region-autoloads fakir-autoloads
find-file-in-project-autoloads find-file-in-repository-autoloads
find-things-fast-autoloads fold-dwim-org-autoloads
fold-dwim-autoloads ggtags-autoloads gist-autoloads
go-mode-autoloads google-this-autoloads
google-translate-autoloads gopher-autoloads header2-autoloads
heap-autoloads helm-autoloads http-twiddle-autoloads
ido-ubiquitous-autoloads iflipb-autoloads igrep-autoloads
inflections-autoloads ioccur-autoloads isearch+-autoloads
js-comint-autoloads js2-mode-autoloads key-chord-autoloads
kill-ring-search-autoloads kv-autoloads lib-requires-autoloads
lmc-autoloads loccur-autoloads macro-math-autoloads
magit-gh-pulls-autoloads gh-autoloads logito-autoloads
magithub-autoloads magnet-autoloads markchars-autoloads
markdown-mode-autoloads marmalade-autoloads furl-autoloads
maxframe-autoloads memory-usage-autoloads minimap-autoloads
mustache-mode-autoloads my-packages-autoloads nav-autoloads
oauth-autoloads oauth2-autoloads otp-autoloads packed-autoloads
magit-autoloads paredit-autoloads pcache-autoloads
perspective-autoloads popup-autoloads project-autoloads
project-mode-autoloads levenshtein-autoloads
protobuf-mode-autoloads pylint-autoloads pysmell-autoloads
python-mode-autoloads quarter-plane-autoloads queue-autoloads
regex-tool-autoloads register-list-autoloads request-autoloads
scala-mode-autoloads scratch-autoloads session-autoloads
shadchen-autoloads shell-here-autoloads shell-switcher-autoloads
edmacro emacspeak-kmacro kmacro slime-repl-autoloads
slime-autoloads smex-autoloads ssh-config-mode-autoloads
string-utils-autoloads list-utils-autoloads synonyms-autoloads
tabkey2-autoloads tabula-rasa-mode-autoloads texdrive-autoloads
thumb-through-autoloads tidy-autoloads unbound-autoloads
vlf-autoloads watch-buffer-autoloads wcheck-mode-autoloads
websocket-autoloads wget-autoloads wgrep-autoloads
workspaces-autoloads wtf-autoloads xml-gen-autoloads
yagist-autoloads finder-inf package emacs-startup uniquify
semantic/idle semantic/format ezimage semantic/tag-ls
semantic/find semantic/ctxt semantic/db-mode semantic/db
eieio-base saveplace midnight emacspeak-cedet semantic/util-modes
semantic/util semantic semantic/tag semantic/lex semantic/fw
mode-local cedet savehist emacspeak-ido ido time autoinsert
emacspeak-gm gm tramp tramp-compat tramp-loaddefs
emacspeak-twittering twittering-mode parse-time epa epg
epg-config ssl emacspeak-jabber jabber jabber-libnotify
jabber-awesome jabber-osd jabber-wmii jabber-xmessage
jabber-festival jabber-sawfish jabber-ratpoison jabber-screen
jabber-socks5 jabber-ft-server jabber-si-server jabber-ft-client
jabber-ft-common jabber-si-client jabber-si-common
jabber-feature-neg jabber-truncate jabber-time jabber-autoaway
jabber-vcard-avatars jabber-chatstates jabber-events jabber-vcard
jabber-avatar jabber-activity jabber-watch jabber-modeline
jabber-ahc-presence jabber-ahc jabber-version jabber-ourversion
jabber-muc-nick-completion hippie-exp jabber-browse jabber-search
jabber-register jabber-roster jabber-presence jabber-muc
jabber-muc-nick-coloring assoc hexrgb jabber-newdisco
jabber-widget jabber-disco jabber-chat jabber-history
jabber-chatbuffer jabber-alert jabber-iq jabber-core
jabber-console emacspeak-sgml-mode sgml-mode ewoc jabber-keymap
jabber-sasl sasl sasl-anonymous sasl-login sasl-plain fsm
jabber-logon jabber-conn srv dns starttls tls jabber-xml
jabber-menu jabber-autoloads jabber-util emacspeak-erc
erc-goodies erc erc-backend erc-compat pp emacspeak-org org
ob-tangle ob-ref ob-lob ob-table org-footnote org-src ob-comint
ob-keys org-pcomplete org-list org-faces org-entities
emacspeak-outline foldout noutline outline easy-mmode org-version
ob-emacs-lisp ob org-compat org-macs ob-eval org-loaddefs
format-spec emacspeak-find-func find-func emacspeak-calendar
lunar solar cal-dst diary-lib diary-loaddefs cal-menu calendar
cal-loaddefs emacspeak-tcl tcl emacspeak-folding folding
emacspeak-w3m w3m-form emacspeak-m-player w3m doc-view jka-compr
image-mode w3m-hist w3m-fb bookmark-w3m w3m-ems w3m-ccl ccl
w3m-favicon w3m-image w3m-proc w3m-util w3-prepare w3 w3-menu
w3-emulate w3-auto w3-parse w3-fast-parse mm-decode mm-bodies
mm-encode emacspeak-w3 emacspeak-google html2text emacspeak-we
emacspeak-xslt w3-display w3-mouse w3-imap url-handlers w3-widget
w3-vars w3-keymap w3-cus css font disp-table devices ange-ftp
w3-cfg w3-compat emacspeak-sigbegone sigbegone emacspeak-custom
cus-edit cus-start smtpmail sendmail mail-utils emacspeak-mspools
mspools bbdb-vm vm-mime vm-folder vm-summary vm-motion vm-undo
vm-misc bbdb-snarf mail-extr rfc822 bbdb-hooks mail-parse rfc2231
rfc2047 rfc2045 ietf-drums bbdb-autoloads bbdb-com mailabbrev
emacspeak-bbdb bbdb timezone vm-pine vm-macro vm-message
vm-autoloads vm-vars vm-version my-functions completion dired-aux
dired-x emacspeak-dired emacspeak-desktop desktop dired
emacspeak-aumix emacspeak-setup emacspeak-dbus nm dbus xml
emacspeak-webspace emacspeak-webutils url url-proxy url-privacy
url-expand url-methods url-history url-cookie url-domsuf url-util
url-parse auth-source eieio gnus-util mm-util mail-prsvr
password-cache url-vars mailcap gweb greader browse-url g-auth
gfeeds g-utils json derived emacspeak-alsaplayer emacspeak-amark
emacspeak-advice vc shell pcomplete comint ring
emacspeak-ansi-color ansi-color emacspeak-replace
emacspeak-redefine emacspeak-personality emacspeak
emacspeak-widget wid-edit emacspeak-facemenu
emacspeak-fix-interactive emacspeak-buff-menu g-cus-load cus-load
emacspeak-sounds emacspeak-preamble emacspeak-keymap
emacspeak-speak time-date emacspeak-pronounce thingatpt dtk-speak
flite-voices dtk-interp voice-setup dectalk-voices espeak-voices
mac-voices multispeech-voices outloud-voices dtk-unicode byte-opt
warnings bytecomp byte-compile cconv descr-text help-mode
easymenu dtk-css-speech acss-structure emacspeak-load-path advice
help-fns vc-git vc-dispatcher vc-svn cl-macs gv cl nadvice cl-lib
tooltip ediff-hook vc-hooks lisp-float-type mwheel x-win x-dnd
tool-bar dnd fontset image regexp-opt fringe tabulated-list
newcomment lisp-mode register page menu-bar rfn-eshadow timer
select scroll-bar mouse jit-lock font-lock syntax facemenu
font-core frame cham georgian utf-8-lang misc-lang vietnamese
tibetan thai tai-viet lao korean japanese hebrew greek romanian
slovak czech european ethiopic indian cyrillic chinese case-table
epa-hook jka-cmpr-hook help simple abbrev minibuffer loaddefs
button faces cus-face macroexp files text-properties overlay sha1
md5 base64 format env code-pages mule custom widget
hashtable-print-readable backquote make-network-process dbusbind
inotify dynamic-setting system-font-setting font-render-setting
move-toolbar gtk x-toolkit x multi-tty emacs)

-- 
Best Regards,
--raman

bug#13731: 24.3.50; C-h N -- Outline navigation Fails

[Glenn Morris]

raman <tv.raman.tv@gmail.com>, "T. V. Raman" wrote:

> Steps to reproduce:
>
> C-h N M-n jumps to the end of the buffer when invoked at the top
> of t

emacs -Q 
C-h N
M-n   ; ->  M-n is undefined

What command do you expect this to run?
If outline-next-visible-heading, then it works for me.

Perhaps this is due to the advice you seem to have enabled.

> ad-Advice-signal: End of buffer [2 times]
> View mode: type C-h for help, h for commands, q to quit.
> You can run the command `outline-next-visible-heading' with  meta n 
> Note: file is write protected
> View mode: type C-h for help, h for commands, q to quit.
> Line 2691
> ad-Advice-signal: End of buffer [2 times]

bug#13731: 24.3.50; C-h N -- Outline navigation Fails

[T. V. Raman]

Glenn -- M-n runs outline-visible-next-heading.

The advice on signal shouldn't have anything to do with this --
it is there to  speak errors etc signalled by signal.

I cannot run with the advice disabled -- I wont get any speech.  
>>>>> "GM" == Glenn Morris <rgm@gnu.org> writes:
    GM> raman <tv.raman.tv@gmail.com>, "T. V. Raman" wrote:
    >> Steps to reproduce:
    >> 
    >> C-h N M-n jumps to the end of the buffer when invoked at
    >> the top of t
    GM> 
    GM> emacs -Q C-h N M-n ; -> M-n is undefined
    GM> 
    GM> What command do you expect this to run? If
    GM> outline-next-visible-heading, then it works for me.
    GM> 
    GM> Perhaps this is due to the advice you seem to have
    GM> enabled.
    GM> 
    >> ad-Advice-signal: End of buffer [2 times] View mode: type
    >> C-h for help, h for commands, q to quit. You can run the
    >> command `outline-next-visible-heading' with meta n Note:
    >> file is write protected View mode: type C-h for help, h
    >> for commands, q to quit. Line 2691 ad-Advice-signal: End
    >> of buffer [2 times]

-- 
Best Regards,
--raman

bug#13731: 24.3.50; C-h N -- Outline navigation Fails

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2013 12:04:46 -0800
> From: "T. V. Raman" <tv.raman.tv@gmail.com>
> Cc: tv.raman.tv@gmail.com, 13731@debbugs.gnu.org
> 
> 
> Glenn -- M-n runs outline-visible-next-heading.

Not here, it doesn't.  I get "undefined", like Glenn.

You have a lot of optimal features active, so I guess you see this
not in "emacs -Q".

outline-next-visible-heading (sic!) is on "C-c C-n", not M-n.  If I
type "C-c C-n", it does go to the next heading, as expected.

bug#13731: 24.3.50; C-h N -- Outline navigation Fails

[T. V. Raman]

Sadly, C-c    C-n -- which also runs the same command
outline-next-visible-heading goes   straight e to the end of the buffer.
>>>>> "Eli" == Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:
    >> Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2013 12:04:46 -0800 From: "T. V. Raman"
    >> <tv.raman.tv@gmail.com> Cc: tv.raman.tv@gmail.com,
    >> 13731@debbugs.gnu.org
    >> 
    >> 
    >> Glenn -- M-n runs outline-visible-next-heading.
    Eli> 
    Eli> Not here, it doesn't. I get "undefined", like Glenn.
    Eli> 
    Eli> You have a lot of optimal features active, so I guess
    Eli> you see this not in "emacs -Q".
    Eli> 
    Eli> outline-next-visible-heading (sic!) is on "C-c C-n", not
    Eli> M-n. If I type "C-c C-n", it does go to the next
    Eli> heading, as expected.

-- 
Best Regards,
--raman

bug#13731: 24.3.50; C-h N -- Outline navigation Fails

[T.V. Raman]

This is definitely something in the packages I'm loading; emacs
-q with emacspeak loaded does not exhibit the breakage.

-- 
Best Regards,
--raman


On 2/16/13, T. V. Raman <tv.raman.tv@gmail.com> wrote:
> Sadly, C-c    C-n -- which also runs the same command
> outline-next-visible-heading goes   straight e to the end of the buffer.
>>>>>> "Eli" == Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:
>     >> Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2013 12:04:46 -0800 From: "T. V. Raman"
>     >> <tv.raman.tv@gmail.com> Cc: tv.raman.tv@gmail.com,
>     >> 13731@debbugs.gnu.org
>     >>
>     >>
>     >> Glenn -- M-n runs outline-visible-next-heading.
>     Eli>
>     Eli> Not here, it doesn't. I get "undefined", like Glenn.
>     Eli>
>     Eli> You have a lot of optimal features active, so I guess
>     Eli> you see this not in "emacs -Q".
>     Eli>
>     Eli> outline-next-visible-heading (sic!) is on "C-c C-n", not
>     Eli> M-n. If I type "C-c C-n", it does go to the next
>     Eli> heading, as expected.
>
> --
> Best Regards,
> --raman
>

bug#13731: 24.3.50; C-h N -- Outline navigation Fails

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2013 18:48:14 -0800
> From: "T.V. Raman" <tv.raman.tv@gmail.com>
> 
> This is definitely something in the packages I'm loading; emacs
> -q with emacspeak loaded does not exhibit the breakage.

Then I suggest to find the package which does that.

bug#13731: 24.3.50; C-h N -- Outline navigation Fails

[T.V. Raman]

I found the cause of the problem, and have a suggestion to avoid
 shootinng oneself in the foot like this:

The problem:

outline-regexp is customizable, and its default value had gotten
changed in my customization settings at some point.  Would be
wise for C-h N  to set outline-regexp appropriately -- perhaps
via a file-local variable in the News file?

-- 
Best Regards,
--raman


On 2/16/13, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> wrote:
>> Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2013 18:48:14 -0800
>> From: "T.V. Raman" <tv.raman.tv@gmail.com>
>>
>> This is definitely something in the packages I'm loading; emacs
>> -q with emacspeak loaded does not exhibit the breakage.
>
> Then I suggest to find the package which does that.
>

bug#13731: 24.3.50; C-h N -- Outline navigation Fails

[Bastien]

"T.V. Raman" <tv.raman.tv@gmail.com> writes:

> outline-regexp is customizable, and its default value had gotten
> changed in my customization settings at some point.  Would be
> wise for C-h N  to set outline-regexp appropriately -- perhaps
> via a file-local variable in the News file?

The docstring of `outline-regexp' says

  The recommended way to set this is with a Local Variables: list in
  the file it applies to.

So I'd suggest to simply follow the recommendation here.

HTH,

-- 
 Bastien

bug#13731: 24.3.50; C-h N -- Outline navigation Fails

[Drew Adams]

> > outline-regexp is customizable, and its default value had gotten
> > changed in my customization settings at some point.  Would be
> > wise for C-h N  to set outline-regexp appropriately -- perhaps
> > via a file-local variable in the News file?
> 
> The docstring of `outline-regexp' says
>   The recommended way to set this is with a Local Variables: list in
>   the file it applies to.
> So I'd suggest to simply follow the recommendation here.

I'd say that that is a doc bug.

This is a _user option_.  The recommended way to set (i.e., customize) it should
be to use Customize.  Users do not necessarily even have a particular file
within which using Local Variables would make sense for this.

I suggest we remove that recommendation from the doc string.  Or we change the
status of this variable from a defcustom to a defvar.

If you want to say that you recommend that Lisp code that sets the value use
Local Variables, that would presumably be OK as far as it goes.  But the general
idea is that Lisp code should not trample on user option values.

And note that nothing else in file outline.el mentions the fact that
`outline-regexp' is likely to be buffer-local.

It seems that that statement has been in the doc string from the beginning - at
least as far back as Emacs 20.  I still think it is misguided.

The same recommendation appears in (emacs) `Outline Format':

  You can customize the criterion for distinguishing heading lines by
  setting the variable `outline-regexp'.  (The recommended ways to do
  this are in a major mode function or with a file local variable.)  Any
  line whose beginning has a match for this regexp is considered a
  heading line.  Matches that start within a line (not at the left
  margin) do not count.

That hardly sounds like the kind of user customization of a defcustom that Emacs
recommends in general.  Sounds like something to be recommended for a defvar
value instead.

Just one opinion.

bug#13731: 24.3.50; C-h N -- Outline navigation Fails

[Bastien]

Hi Drew,

"Drew Adams" <drew.adams@oracle.com> writes:

>> > outline-regexp is customizable, and its default value had gotten
>> > changed in my customization settings at some point.  Would be
>> > wise for C-h N  to set outline-regexp appropriately -- perhaps
>> > via a file-local variable in the News file?
>> 
>> The docstring of `outline-regexp' says
>>   The recommended way to set this is with a Local Variables: list in
>>   the file it applies to.
>> So I'd suggest to simply follow the recommendation here.
>
> I'd say that that is a doc bug.
>
> This is a _user option_.  

Well, I would say this calls for making it a variable instead of an
option.  This is what we do for org-outline-regexp for example.

-- 
 Bastien

bug#13731: 24.3.50; C-h N -- Outline navigation Fails

[Drew Adams]

> > I'd say that that is a doc bug.
> >
> > This is a _user option_.  
> 
> Well, I would say this calls for making it a variable instead of an
> option.  This is what we do for org-outline-regexp for example.

That's what I meant by this:

> I suggest we remove that recommendation from the doc string.
> Or we change the status of this variable from a defcustom to
> a defvar.
    ^^^^^^

The question comes down to the kinds of "customization" we really expect from
users.  If we expect that they will want to change the var value globally, then
a user option is appropriate.  If we expect them to change it using Lisp, and
perhaps locally, then a non-option variable is appropriate.

And if we expect both possibilities then we can have both: an option and a
separate variable.  We can decide which takes precedence and document that.

Yes, it can be reasonable (IMO, but others might disagree) to allow the
non-option var to take precedence, i.e., to allow the user option to be
overruled by code, provided this is well documented so users know what to
expect.

bug#13731: 24.3.50; C-h N -- Outline navigation Fails

[Stefan Monnier]

> Well, I would say this calls for making it a variable instead of an
> option.  This is what we do for org-outline-regexp for example.

Agreed,


        Stefan

bug#13731: 24.3.50; C-h N -- Outline navigation Fails

[Drew Adams]

> > Well, I would say this calls for making it a variable instead of an
> > option.  This is what we do for org-outline-regexp for example.
> 
> Agreed,

Are you not just focusing on the local-variable use case?

What about the case of a global user preference wrt the regexp to use?

Isn't it likely that some users customize this (i.e., as an option), to get a
different general behavior globally?  This option has been around for a very
long time.

Why not provide for both: (a) a general (global) user preference for the default
regexp to use and (b) local behavior that deviates from that behavior?

IOW, add a non-option variable, instead of just replacing the existing option
with a non-option variable.

bug#13731: 24.3.50; C-h N -- Outline navigation Fails

[T. V. Raman]

My recommendation is that this  be made a defvar -- letting
custom touch this variable is hard to debug --
>>>>> "Bastien" == Bastien  <bzg@altern.org> writes:
    Bastien> Hi Drew, "Drew Adams" <drew.adams@oracle.com>
    Bastien> writes:
    Bastien> 
    >>> > outline-regexp is customizable, and its default value
    >>> had gotten > changed in my customization settings at some
    >>> point. Would be > wise for C-h N to set outline-regexp
    >>> appropriately -- perhaps > via a file-local variable in
    >>> the News file?
    >>> 
    >>> The docstring of `outline-regexp' says The recommended
    >>> way to set this is with a Local Variables: list in the
    >>> file it applies to. So I'd suggest to simply follow the
    >>> recommendation here.
    >> 
    >> I'd say that that is a doc bug.
    >> 
    >> This is a _user option_.
    Bastien> 
    Bastien> Well, I would say this calls for making it a
    Bastien> variable instead of an option. This is what we do
    Bastien> for org-outline-regexp for example.
    Bastien> 
    Bastien> -- Bastien

-- 
Best Regards,
--raman

bug#13731: 24.3.50; C-h N -- Outline navigation Fails

[Bastien]

"T. V. Raman" <tv.raman.tv@gmail.com> writes:

> My recommendation is that this  be made a defvar -- letting
> custom touch this variable is hard to debug --

Done, thanks.  I'm now closing this bug report.

-- 
 Bastien