From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Eli Zaretskii Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.bugs Subject: bug#52058: 29.0.50; Confused by usage and documentation of "C-x 8 e e" Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2021 17:11:32 +0200 Message-ID: <83lf18wc0r.fsf@gnu.org> References: <831r37otc6.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="26277"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: 52058@debbugs.gnu.org To: Jonas Bernoulli Original-X-From: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sun Nov 28 16:12:17 2021 Return-path: Envelope-to: geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1mrLqi-0006ag-Rk for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org; Sun, 28 Nov 2021 16:12:17 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:46534 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mrLqh-0005hZ-Fm for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org; Sun, 28 Nov 2021 10:12:15 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:60706) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mrLqV-0005Qx-T1 for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sun, 28 Nov 2021 10:12:03 -0500 Original-Received: from debbugs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.43]:52848) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mrLqV-0005or-JT for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sun, 28 Nov 2021 10:12:03 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-debbugs by debbugs.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mrLqV-0007vy-Eq for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sun, 28 Nov 2021 10:12:03 -0500 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Resent-From: Eli Zaretskii Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2021 15:12:03 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 52058 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs Original-Received: via spool by 52058-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B52058.163811229230412 (code B ref 52058); Sun, 28 Nov 2021 15:12:03 +0000 Original-Received: (at 52058) by debbugs.gnu.org; 28 Nov 2021 15:11:32 +0000 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:36157 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mrLpz-0007uS-Qb for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 28 Nov 2021 10:11:32 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:59726) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mrLpx-0007uC-EF for 52058@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 28 Nov 2021 10:11:30 -0500 Original-Received: from [2001:470:142:3::e] (port=35656 helo=fencepost.gnu.org) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mrLpr-0005e9-Ol; Sun, 28 Nov 2021 10:11:23 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=MIME-version:References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From: Date; bh=jT8/q05a17pXGgWZUupEc/wQ6tVT18o/5wid25tHX1k=; b=mAlAmdEDgbdXzu024Zq8 MSciMjvlE5W8GsY2NQ0juCyEsnMGKNz05fn40UImTZbHSZZ/ka4edvh0xklV5BnHKo8Q97Tmus3Sa z5t150P4AO0HcwRfQn+xVk+6Dca91dD6Difs9pml1wZdUi5268fmjSEdjhwTeUyPoE8QJOs7lYq+G QMEUr3Oh99bMA+fqB56VdZui57+DWfq0VKcpPG11c8Bjj/QLedvNau3PYTDlBCFOLhR3LUpTn4JEr LDfOTuppBEwfW+KWXY0PAcdP33cSPHlbavFfHfmnpKtUlB9/T/6M2V1CEZZU8gyFc64MLTvsRfqHC Px9o448mJOQABQ==; Original-Received: from [87.69.77.57] (port=1560 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mrLpr-0001p2-GI; Sun, 28 Nov 2021 10:11:23 -0500 In-Reply-To: <831r37otc6.fsf@gnu.org> (message from Eli Zaretskii on Tue, 23 Nov 2021 16:11:05 +0200) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list X-BeenThere: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org List-Id: "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "bug-gnu-emacs" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.bugs:220968 Archived-At: Forwarding to the bug tracker an exchange that was mistakenly held off-list: > From: Jonas Bernoulli > Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2021 22:18:11 +0100 > > > But I'm not yet frustrated enough for C-g, so I type a second '?', > > hoping to see the manual, and is presented with the following: > > > > emoji--command-Emoji is an interactive compiled Lisp function. > > > > (emoji--command-Emoji) > > > > Not documented. > > > > This function is for interactive use only. > > > > Where's my promised "manual"? > > If you press "? ?" in the magit-diff transient, then that shows you the > man-page for git-diff. Similarly if you typed "? - s", then that shows > you do the same man-page but also jumps to the line where the > documentation for the "--stat" argument begins. This works because the > definition of the magit-diff transient sets :man-page "git-diff". I expected it to show me something about using this feature, not about an external command or somesuch. That's because my main confusion was about how to use "C-x 8 e e" for inserting Emoji, and because "?" in Emacs usually shows some helpful usage information. For example, type "M-$" and then "?" -- this is what I expected to be presented with. > Transient definitions can alternatively set :info-manual. If there is > an info node for the emoji feature, then this issue could be addressed > by setting :info-manual "(emacs)Emoji" in all the generated transient > prefixes and sub-prefixes. The generated "insert this particular emoji" > suffixes should probably have a generated doc-string along the lines of > "Insert 🤗.\nFor more information see info node (emacs)Emoji and info > node (transient)". Sending the user to the manual is only useful after showing some minimal usage information that allows to proceed without reading the manual. "Insert 🤗." might qualify as "good enough", but in the case of "C-x 8 e e", the display you are presented with hints that a single key will not be enough to insert a specific Emoji, so a short text explaining how to select one emoticon from the shown list would be better. This is what I expected to see, and that is why I was disappointed by what I actually saw. > Similarly the usage information that one gets after pressing just "?": > > Type a to show help for that suffix command, or ? to show manual. > Type C-g to exit help. That text is actually completely impenetrable. What is ? if it's any key, then, as I reported, the response to typing at least some keys confuses even more. If it's only one of a specific set of keys, something should tell the users which KEYs will result in useful responses. And what is "suffix command"? that is not a usual Emacs terminology, so it just muddies the waters. > could be extended with an additional line: > > Type to show information about such transient interfaces. Mentioning "transient" here would be a didactic mistake, IMO: the user doesn't necessarily know what that is about, and the usual meaning of that word will definitely confuse even more.