From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Eli Zaretskii Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.bugs Subject: bug#20322: 25.0.50; indent-tabs-mode should default to nil Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2015 17:36:57 +0300 Message-ID: <83iocu95yu.fsf@gnu.org> References: <861tjn3069.fsf@yandex.ru> <552D20B6.8030005@yandex.ru> <83mw2abul3.fsf@gnu.org> <552D34BC.4090806@yandex.ru> <83h9sibt0q.fsf@gnu.org> <552D7796.2090109@yandex.ru> <83vbgx9xtl.fsf@gnu.org> <55307468.8070307@yandex.ru> <83y4lr8bbf.fsf@gnu.org> <553115E2.6050809@yandex.ru> Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1429281579 15176 80.91.229.3 (17 Apr 2015 14:39:39 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2015 14:39:39 +0000 (UTC) Cc: 20322@debbugs.gnu.org To: Dmitry Gutov Original-X-From: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Fri Apr 17 16:39:29 2015 Return-path: Envelope-to: geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Yj7QX-0008Se-2L for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Fri, 17 Apr 2015 16:39:29 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:41808 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Yj7QW-0001r0-Bs for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Fri, 17 Apr 2015 10:39:28 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:34565) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Yj7PD-00086c-Nl for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 17 Apr 2015 10:38:12 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Yj7P8-0000MD-KT for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 17 Apr 2015 10:38:07 -0400 Original-Received: from debbugs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.43]:41093) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Yj7P8-0000M4-Ht for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 17 Apr 2015 10:38:02 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-debbugs by debbugs.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1Yj7P8-0005N1-94 for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 17 Apr 2015 10:38:02 -0400 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Resent-From: Eli Zaretskii Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2015 14:38:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 20322 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: Original-Received: via spool by 20322-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B20322.142928143620535 (code B ref 20322); Fri, 17 Apr 2015 14:38:02 +0000 Original-Received: (at 20322) by debbugs.gnu.org; 17 Apr 2015 14:37:16 +0000 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:59101 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1Yj7ON-0005L7-60 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 17 Apr 2015 10:37:15 -0400 Original-Received: from mtaout27.012.net.il ([80.179.55.183]:50345) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1Yj7OK-0005Kg-BC for 20322@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 17 Apr 2015 10:37:13 -0400 Original-Received: from conversion-daemon.mtaout27.012.net.il by mtaout27.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0NMY00F00GAA9K00@mtaout27.012.net.il> for 20322@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 17 Apr 2015 17:32:04 +0300 (IDT) Original-Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([87.69.4.28]) by mtaout27.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0NMY00CNMGDGOA20@mtaout27.012.net.il>; Fri, 17 Apr 2015 17:32:04 +0300 (IDT) In-reply-to: <553115E2.6050809@yandex.ru> X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 3.x X-Received-From: 140.186.70.43 X-BeenThere: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org List-Id: "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.bugs:101624 Archived-At: > Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2015 17:17:06 +0300 > From: Dmitry Gutov > CC: 20322@debbugs.gnu.org > > On 04/17/2015 10:26 AM, Eli Zaretskii wrote: > > > Yes, I know that. I'm saying that this default doesn't bother me, as > > long as the modes that I care about still default to non-nil. > > It seems that you won't object to changes as long as they don't affect > your our experience, even if you'd just have to change one line in your > init.el. This argument goes both ways, you know. And no, it's not only my experience, as I mentioned more than once in this thread. > > I meant "need" as in "most users of that language already use spaces". > > So, you're open to considering C and C++ in this context, too? Yes, except that there I have strong views, unlike with most other languages. Are _you_ open to leaving C and C++ at their current defaults? What would it take to convince you doing that? > > I don't consider GitHub to be a representative sample for this matter. > > Maybe not, but it's a sample we can research. And Emacs could do worse > than become more friendly to the modern-ish audience. > > Do you have a better sample in mind? I gave you mine. I've seen, and still see, a lot of C/C++ code written by others, and they all mix spaces and tabs. > > I don't see any complications. Doesn't everyone have their own hooks > > for every language they use, anyway? I know I do, since almost the > > first day I started using Emacs. That hook is the place where users > > could customize the variable, if they don't the defaults. > > The members of those "everyone" shouldn't be bothered with a change in > one tiny default value anyway. True. But changing long-lived defaults always annoys people; you can see evidence to that on help-gnu-emacs almost every day. So we shouldn't change them without a very good reason. And I don't see one in this case. > I think you're overestimating the savvy-ness of an average Emacs user. > Not every beginner is fine with writing Elisp (some spend years without > doing so), and the more effort a user's first steps in Emacs take, the > more likely they are to settle for something else, because they haven't > yet been properly exposed to Emacs's benefits yet. I think you underestimate the widespread use of Google and questions asked on stack-overflow and such likes. People simply collect snippets from there and paste them into their .emacs. Problem solved. > That's why I think the default are important, and that they shouldn't > take the entrenched user base so much into account. But there's nothing wrong with this particular default. It doesn't reduce any functionality. Users that aren't annoyed enough will learn to live with it; those with higher motivation will discover how to change that soon enough. There's no real problem here. Unlike other arguments we had about changing defaults (font-lock, colors, and menus come to mind), this one does not affect any functionality at all. > > See above; and it doesn't have to be a lambda function, of course. > > Mine has a name (my-c-stuff, if you want to know) and a doc string. > > I also use hooks quite a bit in my init script. I think everyone and their dog do. > > We are talking about programmers, for whom having a mode hook is not a > > problem. > > Not necessarily Emacs Lisp programmers, though. I don't think this matters much. When you customize a package, you do that in whatever extension language that package provides. The important aspect here is that programmers are less more likely to become intimidated by the need to make such customizations, in whatever language.