From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Eli Zaretskii Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.bugs Subject: bug#66750: Unhelpful text in C-h v for variables with a lambda form as value Date: Thu, 02 Nov 2023 08:13:30 +0200 Message-ID: <83il6k8yyd.fsf@gnu.org> References: Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="25865"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: acorallo@gnu.org, acm@muc.de, 66750@debbugs.gnu.org, stefankangas@gmail.com To: Stefan Monnier Original-X-From: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Thu Nov 02 07:14:54 2023 Return-path: Envelope-to: geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1qyQyj-0006XC-V6 for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org; Thu, 02 Nov 2023 07:14:54 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qyQyL-0005J8-P5; Thu, 02 Nov 2023 02:14:29 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qyQyK-0005IX-7f for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Thu, 02 Nov 2023 02:14:28 -0400 Original-Received: from debbugs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:5::43]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qyQyJ-0001D6-NN for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Thu, 02 Nov 2023 02:14:27 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-debbugs by debbugs.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qyQys-0003iq-83 for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Thu, 02 Nov 2023 02:15:02 -0400 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Resent-From: Eli Zaretskii Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Thu, 02 Nov 2023 06:15:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 66750 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs Original-Received: via spool by 66750-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B66750.169890568714268 (code B ref 66750); Thu, 02 Nov 2023 06:15:02 +0000 Original-Received: (at 66750) by debbugs.gnu.org; 2 Nov 2023 06:14:47 +0000 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:53722 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qyQyZ-0003hy-30 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 02 Nov 2023 02:14:46 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:35378) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qyQyT-0003he-64 for 66750@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 02 Nov 2023 02:14:41 -0400 Original-Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qyQxm-0001A4-I1; Thu, 02 Nov 2023 02:13:55 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From:Date: mime-version; bh=oEVtUz9K0ibyCEc7PuWYOtaFC7zNIn5qUWR63nlZ+rc=; b=CQAF/3nw30H7 5NTMF+/VdExK3Hw4+Vloas5Q+uVJQ9LH4y25Uyxw9FEpk93W39GSdpLJFC+j8zLTSkXWaHufU2wPC 7BEUbgjhKxbdDSSmIRWv1FZ+fDUFpbdoQeJ0v4iKyGgIG8pP5VLCF98wMjp5XWk3T1YMo1AzRlWOp LvmW+uK+1S0LMx9S1pGSy+X/6x6u314avHNih6CZi4DtBmshzsmfM+Arssf5eiqgEamh44nAGVsft GO9s3pMztl0q0niF4/zPbA+7JNsYUM198v+hBmkMDWWPCuKd6J6cY77HpHJm07xoHsx7E0srzgIIo OlmKJe8KFAZ/DGcOjSTAKQ==; In-Reply-To: (bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list X-BeenThere: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org List-Id: "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.bugs:273633 Archived-At: > Cc: 66750@debbugs.gnu.org, Andrea Corallo , > Stefan Kangas > Date: Wed, 01 Nov 2023 18:46:24 -0400 > From: Stefan Monnier via "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, > the Swiss army knife of text editors" > > >> Before catering to the same use-cases as early-debug, we should cater to > >> the use cases of the average user/developer who's never getting close to > >> the bootstrap. > > I disagree. I don't understand why you want to split off (some of) "the > > use cases of the average user" and only handle those cases. > > I don't. Instead I'm saying we should first and foremost design the > functionality for the most common case. And *then* see what it takes > to extend it to other cases. Agreed. Alan, we are in the engineering business, where designing for the most common case, before adjusting the design in small ways for less common cases, is one of the important principles. > > My intention is to handle _ALL_ cases, and you find this objectionable > > for some reason. > > Because your focus on the fringe cases has negative impacts on the > more common case. And this is the usual outcome of trying to solve _ALL_ cases from the get-go, by focusing on the fringe ones. Premature optimization and all that. Alan, I'd appreciate if you rethink your approach to the implementation with the above principles in mind.