From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Eli Zaretskii Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.bugs Subject: bug#22564: Fundamental mode isn't fundamental enough. Date: Tue, 03 May 2022 20:00:07 +0300 Message-ID: <83h7664kmg.fsf@gnu.org> References: <20160205125559.GC7727@acm.fritz.box> <20160205215301.GG7727@acm.fritz.box> <87ee1isi8r.fsf@gnus.org> <83h7697p7b.fsf@gnu.org> Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="36331"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: rgm@gnu.org, johnw@gnu.org, 22564@debbugs.gnu.org, monnier@iro.umontreal.ca, acm@muc.de, larsi@gnus.org To: rms@gnu.org Original-X-From: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Tue May 03 19:01:15 2022 Return-path: Envelope-to: geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1nlvti-0009EM-0R for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org; Tue, 03 May 2022 19:01:14 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:41686 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1nlvtg-0000y8-NU for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org; Tue, 03 May 2022 13:01:12 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:55274) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1nlvtW-0000sH-2u for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 03 May 2022 13:01:02 -0400 Original-Received: from debbugs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.43]:47044) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1nlvtV-0000GU-Pz for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 03 May 2022 13:01:01 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-debbugs by debbugs.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1nlvtV-0007N4-NR for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 03 May 2022 13:01:01 -0400 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Resent-From: Eli Zaretskii Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Tue, 03 May 2022 17:01:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 22564 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs Original-Received: via spool by 22564-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B22564.165159720924718 (code B ref 22564); Tue, 03 May 2022 17:01:01 +0000 Original-Received: (at 22564) by debbugs.gnu.org; 3 May 2022 17:00:09 +0000 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:40933 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1nlvse-0006Q2-87 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 03 May 2022 13:00:08 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:33342) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1nlvsc-0006JV-2w for 22564@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 03 May 2022 13:00:06 -0400 Original-Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:33382) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1nlvsV-0008Lu-Ez; Tue, 03 May 2022 12:59:59 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From:Date: mime-version; bh=nURk0ANH5uMEEFPDWWhmW6Q1eU01ktyLeWuN9YEqsiU=; b=H5iD+1hEKi7Y eShrwmwU3pumfw9H/U6VSPu/MBu+KsGSHk0wwwRBR0UYhDKyUyDEZqpnA8DkkmPfzJpg8PauMkVvc C4kkqI91nu7mBgjbL8Odt3UNDKqYXAzTjysajFdswZjv/tD2G9H4UyIrOokYDT3bklF8wxvk6g03p n3MtxmS9lJiCNWGJ3Z+SaDgxs54hMjMUcsko1LnUMEDJ4npmxLkGKX3kNd4b7yYmv8CcA+QpbquXW kI7GD6n8bVbRhDTs1vMm56jIjqGyqnXMwv8m5Zrclv7dAw/hcaPyBWvBhvli/XeVh2r1HfITDwsol JUUT3QpW3x+kjqmpRn65XQ==; Original-Received: from [87.69.77.57] (port=2621 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1nlvsS-0000Ts-VI; Tue, 03 May 2022 12:59:57 -0400 In-Reply-To: (message from Richard Stallman on Mon, 02 May 2022 19:47:41 -0400) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list X-BeenThere: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org List-Id: "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "bug-gnu-emacs" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.bugs:231347 Archived-At: > From: Richard Stallman > Cc: monnier@iro.umontreal.ca, acm@muc.de, larsi@gnus.org, > johnw@gnu.org, 22564@debbugs.gnu.org, rgm@gnu.org > Date: Mon, 02 May 2022 19:47:41 -0400 > > > The difficulty is that the hook and the characters vary significantly > > from major mode to major mode. The latter one, for example, can in > > some modes include characters that are very unintuitive, like ':'. > > That is true -- I did not speak clearly. Of course, when a major mode > customizes this, it's the major mode's responsibility to document > how it sets up such indentation. > > But what does Electric Indent mode it do in modes that DON'T customize it? That is only important to document if enough important major modes don't customize it. However, I suggested to say something along these lines, and you didn't respond to that part. My suggestion was to say this: The electric characters normally include the newline, but can also include other characters as needed by the major mode; see `electric-indent-chars' for the actual list. > For instance, what does it do in Fundamental mode? It doesn't say. > I as a user don't know anywhere to look for this. > > > Why is that important? Fundamental mode is not supposed to be used > > frequently by Emacs users, so why single out that mode, and why > > specifically for this minor mode? > > Because Fundamental mode is the default for a file with no special > name or contents to specify another major mode. > And because that minor mode is enabled by default. Sorry, I disagree that Fundamental mode is important. Its being the default doesn't mean users frequently see it, not at all. > > > The doc string also fails to say what, concretely, reindenting does, or even > > > what controls what reindenting does. So it needs a lot of improvement. > > How about adding, "Typically the major mode controls what reindenting does."? I'm sorry, I don't think I understand how saying that would help. Unless a person knows "what reindenting does" (or even what is "reindenting"), this leaves the issue as obscure as it was before.