bug#46911: 28.0.50; woman default page to open

bug#46911: 28.0.50; woman default page to open

[Han Boetes]

whilst using m-x woman man I get this completion menu first:

In this buffer, type RET to select the completion near point.

Possible completions are:
/usr/share/man/man1/man.1.gz                                                          /usr/share/man/man1/man.man-db.1.gz
/usr/share/man/man1p/man.1p.gz                                                        /usr/share/man/man7/man.7.gz
/usr/share/man/man7/man.man-pages.7.gz

After that it took me pressing 5 additional keys to get to the man(1)
manpage. man(1) is very good at simply choosing the first manpage in the
path whilst using "man man" and enabling openening other manpages with
the command "man 7 man". However great woman is, getting to the right
manpage is clunky.


In GNU Emacs 28.0.50 (build 1, x86_64-unknown-openbsd6.8)
 of 2021-02-24 built on dahud.boetes.org
Repository revision: 46b54e5bb42f26a57f6cdbedf83bd80c6c717a4f
Repository branch: master
System Description: OpenBSD dahud.boetes.org 6.8 GENERIC.MP#4 amd64

Configured using:
 'configure --without-makeinfo --without-x --mandir=/usr/local/man
 'CFLAGS=-O2 -pipe -fno-common''

Configured features:
DBUS GNUTLS LCMS2 LIBXML2 MODULES NOTIFY KQUEUE PDUMPER THREADS ZLIB

Important settings:
  value of $LC_COLLATE: C
  value of $LC_TIME: en_GB.UTF-8
  value of $LANG: en_US.UTF-8
  locale-coding-system: utf-8-unix

Major mode: Lisp Interaction

Minor modes in effect:
  magit-auto-revert-mode: t
  global-git-commit-mode: t
  dired-async-mode: t
  global-ethan-wspace-mode: t
  shell-dirtrack-mode: t
  show-paren-mode: t
  tooltip-mode: t
  global-eldoc-mode: t
  eldoc-mode: t
  electric-indent-mode: t
  file-name-shadow-mode: t
  global-font-lock-mode: 1
  font-lock-mode: t
  auto-composition-mode: t
  auto-encryption-mode: t
  auto-compression-mode: 1
  size-indication-mode: t
  column-number-mode: t
  line-number-mode: t
  transient-mark-mode: t

Load-path shadows:
None found.

Features:
(shadow sort mail-extr emacsbug sendmail disp-table view woman man
sh-script smie executable perl-mode vc-git python tramp-sh misearch
multi-isearch generic image term/xterm xterm rust-mode thingatpt
magit-delta xterm-color magit-submodule magit-obsolete magit-blame
magit-stash magit-reflog magit-bisect magit-push magit-pull magit-fetch
magit-clone magit-remote magit-commit magit-sequence magit-notes
magit-worktree magit-tag magit-merge magit-branch magit-reset
magit-files magit-refs magit-status magit magit-repos magit-apply
magit-wip magit-log which-func imenu magit-diff smerge-mode diff
diff-mode magit-core magit-autorevert autorevert filenotify magit-margin
magit-transient magit-process magit-mode git-commit transient rx
magit-git magit-section magit-utils crm log-edit message rmc puny rfc822
mml mml-sec epa derived epg epg-config gnus-util rmail rmail-loaddefs
text-property-search mm-decode mm-bodies mm-encode mail-parse rfc2231
rfc2047 rfc2045 mm-util ietf-drums mail-prsvr mailabbrev mail-utils
gmm-utils mailheader pcvs-util add-log with-editor cl-extra help-mode
server dash airline-ouo-theme airline-themes powerline
powerline-separators color powerline-themes modus-vivendi-theme pcase
edmacro kmacro generic-x cc-mode cc-fonts cc-guess cc-menus cc-cmds
cc-styles cc-align cc-engine cc-vars cc-defs dired-async advice
easy-mmode async dired-aux dired dired-loaddefs ethan-wspace finder-inf
tramp-cmds tramp tramp-loaddefs trampver tramp-integration files-x
tramp-compat shell pcomplete comint regexp-opt ansi-color ring
parse-time iso8601 time-date ls-lisp format-spec paren cus-start
cus-load info tool-bar package easymenu browse-url url url-proxy
url-privacy url-expand url-methods url-history url-cookie url-domsuf
url-util mailcap url-handlers url-parse auth-source cl-seq eieio
eieio-core cl-macs eieio-loaddefs password-cache json subr-x map
url-vars seq byte-opt gv bytecomp byte-compile cconv cl-loaddefs cl-lib
iso-transl tooltip eldoc electric uniquify ediff-hook vc-hooks
lisp-float-type tabulated-list replace newcomment text-mode elisp-mode
lisp-mode prog-mode register page tab-bar menu-bar rfn-eshadow isearch
timer select mouse jit-lock font-lock syntax facemenu font-core
term/tty-colors frame minibuffer cl-generic cham georgian utf-8-lang
misc-lang vietnamese tibetan thai tai-viet lao korean japanese eucjp-ms
cp51932 hebrew greek romanian slovak czech european ethiopic indian
cyrillic chinese composite charscript charprop case-table epa-hook
jka-cmpr-hook help simple abbrev obarray cl-preloaded nadvice button
loaddefs faces cus-face macroexp files window text-properties overlay
sha1 md5 base64 format env code-pages mule custom widget
hashtable-print-readable backquote threads dbusbind kqueue lcms2
multi-tty make-network-process emacs)

Memory information:
((conses 16 409210 24494)
 (symbols 48 28216 2)
 (strings 32 127099 4310)
 (string-bytes 1 3589920)
 (vectors 16 38960)
 (vector-slots 8 476606 24987)
 (floats 8 247 118)
 (intervals 56 270 36)
 (buffers 992 15))

bug#46911: 28.0.50; woman default page to open

[Lars Ingebrigtsen]

Han Boetes <han@boetes.org> writes:

> whilst using m-x woman man I get this completion menu first:
>
> In this buffer, type RET to select the completion near point.
>
> Possible completions are:
> /usr/share/man/man1/man.1.gz                                                          /usr/share/man/man1/man.man-db.1.gz
> /usr/share/man/man1p/man.1p.gz                                                        /usr/share/man/man7/man.7.gz
> /usr/share/man/man7/man.man-pages.7.gz
>
> After that it took me pressing 5 additional keys to get to the man(1)
> manpage. man(1) is very good at simply choosing the first manpage in the
> path whilst using "man man" and enabling openening other manpages with
> the command "man 7 man". However great woman is, getting to the right
> manpage is clunky.

I think this is how `M-x woman' has always worked -- instead of typing
in a section and a word (as you do with `M-x man'), you use a file
browser to choose the manual.

There are advantages and disadvantages to both methods (for instance, in
`M-x man' you aren't notified that there's a page for the topic in
several sections), but the `M-x woman' method (sometimes) more choosing.

So I think everything here works as designed?  Anybody got an opinion
here?

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no

bug#46911: 28.0.50; woman default page to open

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@gnus.org>
> Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2021 21:06:06 +0100
> Cc: 46911@debbugs.gnu.org
> 
> I think this is how `M-x woman' has always worked -- instead of typing
> in a section and a word (as you do with `M-x man'), you use a file
> browser to choose the manual.
> 
> There are advantages and disadvantages to both methods (for instance, in
> `M-x man' you aren't notified that there's a page for the topic in
> several sections), but the `M-x woman' method (sometimes) more choosing.
> 
> So I think everything here works as designed?  Anybody got an opinion
> here?

Yes, I think this is a kind-of feature of woman.el.

bug#46911: 28.0.50; woman default page to open

[Han Boetes]

Eli Zaretskii wrote:
> > From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@gnus.org>
> > Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2021 21:06:06 +0100
> > Cc: 46911@debbugs.gnu.org
> > 
> > I think this is how `M-x woman' has always worked -- instead of typing
> > in a section and a word (as you do with `M-x man'), you use a file
> > browser to choose the manual.
> > 
> > There are advantages and disadvantages to both methods (for instance, in
> > `M-x man' you aren't notified that there's a page for the topic in
> > several sections), but the `M-x woman' method (sometimes) more choosing.
> > 
> > So I think everything here works as designed?  Anybody got an opinion
> > here?
> 
> Yes, I think this is a kind-of feature of woman.el.

Ah right, I never realized m-x man was also working. Thanks for the
heads-up.


# Han

bug#46911: 28.0.50; woman default page to open

[Glenn Morris]

Lars Ingebrigtsen wrote:

> Anybody got an opinion here?

Oh, if it's _opinions_ you want... :)

IMO there's no point maintaining woman.el, since it is a partial
re-implementation of a standalone program (man) that exists on every
Emacs platform of relevance (ie those that actually have man pages),
and which also has an Emacs interface.

bug#46911: 28.0.50; woman default page to open

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Glenn Morris <rgm@gnu.org>
> Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2021 23:48:47 -0500
> Cc: 46911@debbugs.gnu.org, Han Boetes <han@boetes.org>
> 
> IMO there's no point maintaining woman.el, since it is a partial
> re-implementation of a standalone program (man) that exists on every
> Emacs platform of relevance (ie those that actually have man pages),
> and which also has an Emacs interface.

Yes, I think we already made that decision in the past.

bug#46911: 28.0.50; woman default page to open

[Lars Ingebrigtsen]

Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:

>> IMO there's no point maintaining woman.el, since it is a partial
>> re-implementation of a standalone program (man) that exists on every
>> Emacs platform of relevance (ie those that actually have man pages),
>> and which also has an Emacs interface.
>
> Yes, I think we already made that decision in the past.

Should we obsolete woman.el then?  If we're not maintaining it...

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no

bug#46911: 28.0.50; woman default page to open

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@gnus.org>
> Cc: Glenn Morris <rgm@gnu.org>,  46911@debbugs.gnu.org,  han@boetes.org
> Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2021 14:33:28 +0100
> 
> Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:
> 
> >> IMO there's no point maintaining woman.el, since it is a partial
> >> re-implementation of a standalone program (man) that exists on every
> >> Emacs platform of relevance (ie those that actually have man pages),
> >> and which also has an Emacs interface.
> >
> > Yes, I think we already made that decision in the past.
> 
> Should we obsolete woman.el then?  If we're not maintaining it...

If people no longer use it, I don't mind.

However, in this discussion:

  https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2020-07/msg00755.html

Michael (CC'ed) wanted to consider woman.el for remote man pages.
Michael, what happened with that idea?

bug#46911: 28.0.50; woman default page to open

[Michael Albinus]

Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:

Hi Eli,

>> Should we obsolete woman.el then?  If we're not maintaining it...
>
> If people no longer use it, I don't mind.
>
> However, in this discussion:
>
>   https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2020-07/msg00755.html
>
> Michael (CC'ed) wanted to consider woman.el for remote man pages.
> Michael, what happened with that idea?

It's still on my TODO, but covered by other activities (currently, I'm
working on bringing sshfs to Tramp). If woman.el is obsoleted, I would
do it with man.el.

Best regards, Michael.

bug#46911: 28.0.50; woman default page to open

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Michael Albinus <michael.albinus@gmx.de>
> Cc: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@gnus.org>,  rgm@gnu.org,
>   46911@debbugs.gnu.org,  han@boetes.org
> Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2021 16:51:30 +0100
> 
> >   https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2020-07/msg00755.html
> >
> > Michael (CC'ed) wanted to consider woman.el for remote man pages.
> > Michael, what happened with that idea?
> 
> It's still on my TODO, but covered by other activities (currently, I'm
> working on bringing sshfs to Tramp). If woman.el is obsoleted, I would
> do it with man.el.

Thanks.  Then I guess we can move woman.el to lisp/obsolete/.

bug#46911: 28.0.50; woman default page to open

[Lars Ingebrigtsen]

Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:

> Thanks.  Then I guess we can move woman.el to lisp/obsolete/.

Should we query emacs-devel first to see whether anybody has a use case
for woman.el not covered by man.el first, perhaps?

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no

bug#46911: 28.0.50; woman default page to open

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@gnus.org>
> Cc: Michael Albinus <michael.albinus@gmx.de>,  rgm@gnu.org,
>   46911@debbugs.gnu.org,  han@boetes.org
> Date: Sat, 06 Mar 2021 13:41:09 +0100
> 
> Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:
> 
> > Thanks.  Then I guess we can move woman.el to lisp/obsolete/.
> 
> Should we query emacs-devel first to see whether anybody has a use case
> for woman.el not covered by man.el first, perhaps?

We probably should.

bug#46911: 28.0.50; woman default page to open

[Lars Ingebrigtsen]

Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:

>> Should we query emacs-devel first to see whether anybody has a use case
>> for woman.el not covered by man.el first, perhaps?
>
> We probably should.

I don't really have an opinion here as to whether woman.el should be
obsoleted -- it certainly seems to be something that people use, but
it's unclear why.

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no

bug#46911: 28.0.50; woman default page to open

[Lars Ingebrigtsen]

Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@gnus.org> writes:

> I don't really have an opinion here as to whether woman.el should be
> obsoleted -- it certainly seems to be something that people use, but
> it's unclear why.

In any case, I'm closing this bug report, since woman.el behaves as
designed here.

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no