From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Eli Zaretskii Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.bugs Subject: bug#19468: 25.0.50; UI inconveniences with M-. Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2015 17:55:03 +0300 Message-ID: <83a8xswbeg.fsf@gnu.org> References: <83zja6b3tc.fsf@gnu.org> <54A24079.4020902@yandex.ru> <54A2FF47.6010207@yandex.ru> <54A86135.7080004@yandex.ru> <54A90002.7080009@gmx.at> <54A9C3FB.7000602@yandex.ru> <54AA3881.3080304@gmx.at> <54ABBB47.7010603@yandex.ru> <837fszx7iy.fsf@gnu.org> <83pp6pwqnw.fsf@gnu.org> <83lhhdwfft.fsf@gnu.org> <553EB903.9060000@yandex.ru> Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1430232986 20359 80.91.229.3 (28 Apr 2015 14:56:26 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2015 14:56:26 +0000 (UTC) Cc: 19468@debbugs.gnu.org To: Dmitry Gutov Original-X-From: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Tue Apr 28 16:56:15 2015 Return-path: Envelope-to: geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Yn6vk-0003dJ-LN for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Tue, 28 Apr 2015 16:56:12 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:33945 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Yn6vj-0003ZJ-Ud for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Tue, 28 Apr 2015 10:56:11 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:36854) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Yn6vf-0003Z1-OQ for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 28 Apr 2015 10:56:09 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Yn6vc-0007yN-5V for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 28 Apr 2015 10:56:07 -0400 Original-Received: from debbugs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.43]:53097) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Yn6vb-0007yE-Ne for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 28 Apr 2015 10:56:04 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-debbugs by debbugs.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1Yn6vb-0002uz-8D for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 28 Apr 2015 10:56:03 -0400 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Resent-From: Eli Zaretskii Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2015 14:56:03 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 19468 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: Original-Received: via spool by 19468-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B19468.143023292611156 (code B ref 19468); Tue, 28 Apr 2015 14:56:03 +0000 Original-Received: (at 19468) by debbugs.gnu.org; 28 Apr 2015 14:55:26 +0000 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:42870 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1Yn6uz-0002tr-1S for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 28 Apr 2015 10:55:25 -0400 Original-Received: from mtaout27.012.net.il ([80.179.55.183]:44115) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1Yn6uv-0002tc-5t for 19468@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 28 Apr 2015 10:55:22 -0400 Original-Received: from conversion-daemon.mtaout27.012.net.il by mtaout27.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0NNI00H00UDIZ900@mtaout27.012.net.il> for 19468@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 28 Apr 2015 17:50:15 +0300 (IDT) Original-Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([87.69.4.28]) by mtaout27.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0NNI008Y5UJRZE90@mtaout27.012.net.il>; Tue, 28 Apr 2015 17:50:15 +0300 (IDT) In-reply-to: <553EB903.9060000@yandex.ru> X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 3.x X-Received-From: 140.186.70.43 X-BeenThere: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org List-Id: "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.bugs:102165 Archived-At: > Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2015 01:32:35 +0300 > From: Dmitry Gutov > CC: 19468@debbugs.gnu.org > > We shouldn't treat the Emacs core as second-rate citizen, either. A > feature as central to code development and Emacs in general as finding > definitions and references of symbols cannot thrive only (or mainly) > outside the core, IMO. > > So? What are you doing to help with that? I filed this bug report, for starters. I then invested a non-trivial amount of my time into learning this feature, trying different things, describing my experiences, thinking about ways to improve this, etc. And I continue doing that. I hope this does help; if not, feel free to close this bug report as "won't fix" and tell me not to bother anymore. > Are you asking anyone currently participating in this thread to work on CEDET? That would be nice, yes. But I'd settle with merely having us agreed to the above statement. > Where did you see me say I dislike it? I'm just saying that learning > a new UI for the sake of a new UI is a waste. I _am_ prepared to > learn a new UI if it brings new useful functionality with it. > > The new UI itself brings tangible improvements by itself, as well as a unified interface that can (and hopefully will) be used by different projects. I don't know how you don't see the value in that. I'm saying that improvement that is only a potential one, without any feature that actually uses it, is incomplete, to say the least. If there are no back-ends that make use of these niceties, they simply don't exist as far as users are concerned, and consequently their value is purely theoretical. This feature, including the new UI and API, was introduced 4 months ago, and we still have only 2 back-ends supporting it: ELisp and Ada. All the other languages, including C/C++/Java, and other important ones, still use etags, which is said to be inadequate. Is someone working on more back-ends as we speak? If not, I see currently no practical benefits from introducing these changes. They are nothing more than infrastructure waiting for programmers to use it, and those programmers don't seem to be coming. Putting on my cynic hat, I'd say it's a solution looking for the problem.