From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Eli Zaretskii Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.bugs Subject: bug#21695: 25.0.50; Change most occurrences of `setq' in Emacs manual to `customize-set-variable'? Really? Date: Thu, 02 Sep 2021 09:53:20 +0300 Message-ID: <838s0fpixr.fsf@gnu.org> References: <97d3ff2c-9e72-4004-88a9-08130ac99a74@default> Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="10168"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: 21695@debbugs.gnu.org, hmelman@gmail.com To: rms@gnu.org Original-X-From: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Thu Sep 02 08:54:09 2021 Return-path: Envelope-to: geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1mLgbx-0002L0-2p for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org; Thu, 02 Sep 2021 08:54:09 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:47212 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mLgbv-0005Co-Vk for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org; Thu, 02 Sep 2021 02:54:08 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:51786) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mLgbq-0005CY-39 for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Thu, 02 Sep 2021 02:54:02 -0400 Original-Received: from debbugs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.43]:56188) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mLgbp-0002E3-SA for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Thu, 02 Sep 2021 02:54:01 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-debbugs by debbugs.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mLgbp-0002ZC-Oe for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Thu, 02 Sep 2021 02:54:01 -0400 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Resent-From: Eli Zaretskii Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Thu, 02 Sep 2021 06:54:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 21695 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs Original-Received: via spool by 21695-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B21695.16305656189838 (code B ref 21695); Thu, 02 Sep 2021 06:54:01 +0000 Original-Received: (at 21695) by debbugs.gnu.org; 2 Sep 2021 06:53:38 +0000 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:39501 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mLgbS-0002Yc-H5 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 02 Sep 2021 02:53:38 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:35616) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mLgbQ-0002YQ-ES for 21695@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 02 Sep 2021 02:53:37 -0400 Original-Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:51020) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mLgbL-0001nn-3v; Thu, 02 Sep 2021 02:53:31 -0400 Original-Received: from 84.94.185.95.cable.012.net.il ([84.94.185.95]:2819 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mLgbC-0007wb-S5; Thu, 02 Sep 2021 02:53:23 -0400 In-Reply-To: (message from Richard Stallman on Wed, 01 Sep 2021 23:42:04 -0400) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list X-BeenThere: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org List-Id: "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "bug-gnu-emacs" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.bugs:213233 Archived-At: > From: Richard Stallman > Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2021 23:42:04 -0400 > Cc: 21695@debbugs.gnu.org > > > Searching emacs 27.2 elisp source I find about 400 hits for :set. > > That is more than I expected. However, there around 8000 defcustoms > in master as of May 11, and only 462 instances of :set. > > Telling people to use customize-set-variable for all 8000 of them > feels like the tail wagging the dog. Yes. But I don't see why the numbers matter here. An option which cannot be usefully change via setq mentions that in its doc string (or at least it should; if it doesn't, that's a documentation bug), so all we need to say in the manual is that such options exist, and they announce the need to use customize-set-variable in their doc string by such-and-such text. Then the users will have enough information to figure out which variable needs what method. > I have a feeling that most of those 462 with :set actually require > that people use customize-set-variable to set them in the init file. > I suspect that, for most of them, :set is meant to handle the case > where you change the setting once the feature is already in use. That's an orthogonal issue, I think. The issue at hand is how to prevent users from mistakenly using setq where doing that is insufficient. We could independently see to it that the number of options that actually need this is kept at a minimum.