From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Eli Zaretskii Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.bugs Subject: bug#15095: 24.2; mail items in Tools menu confusing to new users Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2013 21:05:00 +0300 Message-ID: <837gfop2r7.fsf@gnu.org> References: <87y584tdzu.fsf@abbey.wistly.net> Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1376503522 21027 80.91.229.3 (14 Aug 2013 18:05:22 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2013 18:05:22 +0000 (UTC) Cc: 15095@debbugs.gnu.org To: Carson Chittom Original-X-From: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Wed Aug 14 20:05:23 2013 Return-path: Envelope-to: geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1V9fRi-000460-MB for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Wed, 14 Aug 2013 20:05:22 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:47862 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1V9fRi-0007d9-5q for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Wed, 14 Aug 2013 14:05:22 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:60048) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1V9fRY-0007a5-Fo for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 14 Aug 2013 14:05:18 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1V9fRP-0001Td-DX for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 14 Aug 2013 14:05:12 -0400 Original-Received: from debbugs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.43]:36021) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1V9fRP-0001Sa-AI for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 14 Aug 2013 14:05:03 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-debbugs by debbugs.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1V9fRO-0000rR-Lu for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 14 Aug 2013 14:05:02 -0400 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Resent-From: Eli Zaretskii Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2013 18:05:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 15095 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: Original-Received: via spool by 15095-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B15095.13765034813263 (code B ref 15095); Wed, 14 Aug 2013 18:05:02 +0000 Original-Received: (at 15095) by debbugs.gnu.org; 14 Aug 2013 18:04:41 +0000 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:58569 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1V9fR3-0000qZ-H5 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 14 Aug 2013 14:04:41 -0400 Original-Received: from mtaout20.012.net.il ([80.179.55.166]:58330) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1V9fR0-0000qE-Ub for 15095@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 14 Aug 2013 14:04:40 -0400 Original-Received: from conversion-daemon.a-mtaout20.012.net.il by a-mtaout20.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0MRJ00F008SJYV00@a-mtaout20.012.net.il> for 15095@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 14 Aug 2013 21:04:32 +0300 (IDT) Original-Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([87.69.4.28]) by a-mtaout20.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0MRJ00FL48VJYZ00@a-mtaout20.012.net.il>; Wed, 14 Aug 2013 21:04:32 +0300 (IDT) In-reply-to: <87y584tdzu.fsf@abbey.wistly.net> X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 3.x X-Received-From: 140.186.70.43 X-BeenThere: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org List-Id: "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.bugs:77350 Archived-At: > From: Carson Chittom > Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2013 11:48:37 -0500 > > This bug report is regarding the usability of the menu system. The > "Tools" menu has three options for mail/news: > > - Read Net News (Gnus) > - Read Mail (RMAIL) > - Send Mail (with Gnus Message) C-x m > > Any user new to Emacs would, reasonably in my view, ask, "Why do I read > Net News with Gnus and send mail with Gnus Message (is that different > from just Gnus?) but read mail with RMAIL?" My recommendation is to > eliminate a specific "Send Mail" menu item, since I think most people > think of reading and sending mail together as a single task. We'd then > have two items, something like: > > - Read/Send Mail & Net News (Gnus) > - Read/Send Mail (RMAIL) That's not really the issue here. The real problem is that the "Gnus" part of "Gnus Message" is misleading: message.el is a package that was developed as part of Gnus, but you can send email with it without firing up Gnus. Since a few versions ago, Emacs uses message.el as the default way of sending email (it was sendmail.el before). Another issue that might be confusing here is that you can start mail composition and send it without reading any email before that. That's why there are 2 menu items instead of one. Finally, Rmail cannot send mail, it uses either message.el or sendmail.el for that.