From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Eli Zaretskii Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.bugs Subject: bug#15117: 24.3.50; doc of `(forward|backward)-*': state return value Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2014 18:31:50 +0200 Message-ID: <8361oltxu1.fsf@gnu.org> References: <1dc76f7a-5481-41df-b976-ec22229d7283@default> <874n4a42f0.fsf@building.gnus.org> <1281d0fd-77cb-45e2-b99d-f4ad24b0fc4e@default> <2fefcbaf-9417-4f57-93af-490ea73aea98@default> <68a64949-d801-4d09-8dc8-4b6ae0824855@default> Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1392136409 19035 80.91.229.3 (11 Feb 2014 16:33:29 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2014 16:33:29 +0000 (UTC) Cc: 15117@debbugs.gnu.org, lekktu@gmail.com, larsi@gnus.org To: Drew Adams Original-X-From: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Tue Feb 11 17:33:35 2014 Return-path: Envelope-to: geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1WDGH4-0005oe-Ag for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Tue, 11 Feb 2014 17:33:30 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:34506 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1WDGH3-0007Mj-VK for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Tue, 11 Feb 2014 11:33:29 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:35127) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1WDGGi-00071N-D3 for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 11 Feb 2014 11:33:14 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1WDGGd-0005Az-25 for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 11 Feb 2014 11:33:08 -0500 Original-Received: from debbugs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.43]:46454) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1WDGGc-0005Av-Qt for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 11 Feb 2014 11:33:02 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-debbugs by debbugs.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1WDGGc-0006bj-9D for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 11 Feb 2014 11:33:02 -0500 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Resent-From: Eli Zaretskii Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2014 16:33:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 15117 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: wontfix Original-Received: via spool by 15117-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B15117.139213633925329 (code B ref 15117); Tue, 11 Feb 2014 16:33:02 +0000 Original-Received: (at 15117) by debbugs.gnu.org; 11 Feb 2014 16:32:19 +0000 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:47636 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1WDGFr-0006aO-5d for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 11 Feb 2014 11:32:19 -0500 Original-Received: from mtaout25.012.net.il ([80.179.55.181]:59921) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1WDGFk-0006Zw-S8 for 15117@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 11 Feb 2014 11:32:12 -0500 Original-Received: from conversion-daemon.mtaout25.012.net.il by mtaout25.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0N0U00700B1KCM00@mtaout25.012.net.il> for 15117@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 11 Feb 2014 18:31:06 +0200 (IST) Original-Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([87.69.4.28]) by mtaout25.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0N0U007CWB7U3610@mtaout25.012.net.il>; Tue, 11 Feb 2014 18:31:06 +0200 (IST) In-reply-to: <68a64949-d801-4d09-8dc8-4b6ae0824855@default> X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 3.x X-Received-From: 140.186.70.43 X-BeenThere: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org List-Id: "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.bugs:85386 Archived-At: > Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2014 22:43:08 -0800 (PST) > From: Drew Adams > Cc: 15117@debbugs.gnu.org, Lars Ingebrigtsen > > > > Motion functions are not what is typically meant by a > > > side-effect function. > > In Emacs, in the sense of modifying buffer contents. That was > what I meant. No, I was not clear enough. But it doesn't really > matter. That is anyway *not* a criterion I use for whether a Lisp > function should have a defined and documented return value. > > My criterion for that is just whether such a value is useful and > can be counted on. If so, then I say we should let users know that > they can count on it. Simple as that. > > > Why not? Functions intended to move the point are as prototypically > > side-effect functions as you can get. That goto-char returns > > POSITION is a moderately useful, but not-at-all necessary commodity. > > goto-char moving the point as a side effect is its whole raison d'être. > > Agreed; it is. And the resulting position is thus an important part > of its effect. And it is handy to use that value directly. It always > has been. There is nothing special about this. And nothing special > about `goto-char' or `skip-chars-forward' vs `forward-char'. That's > the point. With all due respect to the philosophical argument raging through this thread, it has nothing at all to do with the original bug report. If you (Drew) want that something productive comes out of this, please point out specific forward/backward-* functions that return non-trivial values, and those values are not documented. The only 2 functions mentioned since the beginning of this discussion are forward/backward-sexp, which always return nil, a.k.a. "nothing". I also tried a couple of other random functions, and they seem all to be of this "nothing" kind. So I wonder whether we have any real problem here.