From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Eli Zaretskii Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.bugs Subject: bug#3516: 23.0.94; function key names in Info Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2011 23:30:02 +0300 Message-ID: <831uxvfdit.fsf@gnu.org> References: <838vs3fq0t.fsf@gnu.org> <8362n7fmj4.fsf@gnu.org> <9F8D92A1589E4FEBBD8FD4F9D357247A@us.oracle.com> Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org X-Trace: dough.gmane.org 1310502578 30806 80.91.229.12 (12 Jul 2011 20:29:38 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2011 20:29:38 +0000 (UTC) Cc: larsi@gnus.org, 3516@debbugs.gnu.org To: Drew Adams Original-X-From: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Tue Jul 12 22:29:34 2011 Return-path: Envelope-to: geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([140.186.70.17]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1QgjaE-0000mw-MS for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Tue, 12 Jul 2011 22:29:30 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:40363 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1QgjaD-0003BV-P3 for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Tue, 12 Jul 2011 16:29:29 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:49470) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1QgjZs-0003Ah-Pz for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 12 Jul 2011 16:29:13 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1QgjZm-0005CO-Lh for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 12 Jul 2011 16:29:08 -0400 Original-Received: from debbugs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.43]:42879) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1QgjZm-0005C7-8r for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 12 Jul 2011 16:29:02 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-debbugs by debbugs.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1QgjZl-0000en-N4; Tue, 12 Jul 2011 16:29:01 -0400 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Resent-From: Eli Zaretskii Original-Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Resent-To: owner@debbugs.gnu.org Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2011 20:29:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 3516 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: notabug Original-Received: via spool by 3516-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B3516.13105025102488 (code B ref 3516); Tue, 12 Jul 2011 20:29:01 +0000 Original-Received: (at 3516) by debbugs.gnu.org; 12 Jul 2011 20:28:30 +0000 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1QgjZF-0000e5-Gg for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 12 Jul 2011 16:28:29 -0400 Original-Received: from mtaout20.012.net.il ([80.179.55.166]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1QgjZD-0000dr-88 for 3516@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 12 Jul 2011 16:28:28 -0400 Original-Received: from conversion-daemon.a-mtaout20.012.net.il by a-mtaout20.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0LO800H00M1LU400@a-mtaout20.012.net.il> for 3516@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 12 Jul 2011 23:27:59 +0300 (IDT) Original-Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([84.229.156.102]) by a-mtaout20.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0LO800HPCM6K78G0@a-mtaout20.012.net.il>; Tue, 12 Jul 2011 23:27:58 +0300 (IDT) In-reply-to: <9F8D92A1589E4FEBBD8FD4F9D357247A@us.oracle.com> X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list Resent-Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2011 16:29:01 -0400 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 140.186.70.43 X-BeenThere: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org List-Id: "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.bugs:48780 Archived-At: > From: "Drew Adams" > Cc: , <3516@debbugs.gnu.org> > Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2011 13:04:14 -0700 > > > > What you describe is an implementation problem (Texinfo, Info). > > > > Actually, no: _you_ are talking about implementation. > > No. I am talking only about the appearance in Info. The appearance in Info _is_ implementation. > And the cases I referred to were about _key sequences_, not key names. Go back and re-read your report. Then look up the corresponding portions of the manual, and you will see that , etc. are used in the context that names keys by their names. If you are saying that sometimes <..> is used where we talk about keyboard input, then please point out specific instances where that happens, instead of making a general observation. As a general observation, what you say is incorrect. > If @kbd is what you use to represent a key sequence, that is, a sequence of > input events, then presumably it should be @kbd that is used in the cases I'm > referring to. Which cases, specifically? Your reference is to an entire node. > I am not speaking about references to the _name_ of the key. I made that clear > from the beginning. You made nothing clear about that, till now. > In those contexts would be appropriate. Thank you! We have hope! > I am speaking about references to the key sequence `', that is, to the > _use_ of the key. "use" is a grey area. What about the following sentence: To end a line, press the key. ? Are we naming a key by its label or are we talking about a "key sequence"? > > > The point is that `' should be used. > > > > According to you. According to 25-year long practice of writing GNU > > manuals, practice that is codified in the Texinfo manual (which is a > > de-facto standard for writing GNU documentation), @key{RET} should be > > used, and in Info it produces without quotes. > > You alone are talking about @key. From what you've said above about it, the > occurrences I'm talking about should presumably use @kbd (?). @kbd{@key{..}} > But I do not pretend to say how you should write it in Texinfo. I'm only > speaking to how it is represented in the final, Info, result. If you don't understand Texinfo and don't care about the other output formats, your report is not of much use, because changes to the manual _must_ consider all supported forms of output. > The return key is named by its label , just as the A key is named by its > label A. Not "just". There's a fundamental difference: "A" is a key and a character; is "just" a key. > > Again, the distinction between @kbd and @key is very basic. > > Please speak in terms of Info and not Texinfo. No. > This should be a no-brainer, but you are making a big deal out of it. Yeah, right. _I_ am making a big deal. > you can enter `M-a' by typing ` a'. > You can enter `C-M-a' by typing ` C-a'. > > Here we correctly write ` a' and not `a' or a. When it's clearly part of a sequence of inputs, yes. > Other occurrences of in the same paragraph refer to the key name: no > single quotes. That is all correct, IMO. Similarly, the singleton key sequence > `M-a' is correctly written using quotes. > > What I am saying is that, just as we write ` a' here, so should we write > `C-x '. And when referring to a single-key sequence, `' and `'. Exactly where? Be specific, if you want any result other than "wontfix".