From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Eli Zaretskii Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.bugs Subject: bug#66750: Unhelpful text in C-h v for variables with a lambda form as value Date: Thu, 02 Nov 2023 15:50:14 +0200 Message-ID: <831qd88dt5.fsf@gnu.org> References: <83il6k8yyd.fsf@gnu.org> <837cn08o13.fsf@gnu.org> Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="12082"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: acorallo@gnu.org, 66750@debbugs.gnu.org, monnier@iro.umontreal.ca, acm@muc.de, stefankangas@gmail.com To: Alan Mackenzie Original-X-From: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Thu Nov 02 14:51:52 2023 Return-path: Envelope-to: geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1qyY6x-0002ur-5f for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org; Thu, 02 Nov 2023 14:51:51 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qyY6b-0000T0-2v; Thu, 02 Nov 2023 09:51:29 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qyY6Z-0000SQ-Ij for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Thu, 02 Nov 2023 09:51:28 -0400 Original-Received: from debbugs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:5::43]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qyY6Z-00063I-9V for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Thu, 02 Nov 2023 09:51:27 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-debbugs by debbugs.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qyY77-0003hH-V5 for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Thu, 02 Nov 2023 09:52:01 -0400 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Resent-From: Eli Zaretskii Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Thu, 02 Nov 2023 13:52:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 66750 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs Original-Received: via spool by 66750-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B66750.169893307514148 (code B ref 66750); Thu, 02 Nov 2023 13:52:01 +0000 Original-Received: (at 66750) by debbugs.gnu.org; 2 Nov 2023 13:51:15 +0000 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:54190 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qyY6I-0003g2-P4 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 02 Nov 2023 09:51:15 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:50514) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qyY6D-0003fV-GO for 66750@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 02 Nov 2023 09:51:09 -0400 Original-Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qyY5X-00048J-88; Thu, 02 Nov 2023 09:50:23 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From:Date: mime-version; bh=hl5L2difJqceNxROJLjnrwLMp1Nma7xOqUXsZ0COjbM=; b=bY5E+DEDfdWg pKstRmghqrTZsICUi0quo2KvOsp8xad6YjbzQyROz60kMMt/HXkzHyyyImcNEcLmyK8/zFM0fS/i4 GV+SfPAviQg151prVx8SzrhRt6bUyELYdFUKQHtew18oAM7dGlaWFcudf4ELhx/vFWDCqfVtrJLN4 BarXXIcAXFl4OtMtjzO3HTsz5Vo1Fyt8keG6ympk6doW5+jLaAt5PnVA0dvpv1b2y0nSNcRRKDCVO YnKaVHzv+zDXkJDEAhy3Zj6+9iDT7XYDFk9VPSi71cOc9oVmf1skkePKvGdaOHFNARYzSlrxDQKFj wS3f35rcyLpZ16yECBFHuw==; In-Reply-To: (message from Alan Mackenzie on Thu, 2 Nov 2023 11:52:45 +0000) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list X-BeenThere: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org List-Id: "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.bugs:273650 Archived-At: > Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2023 11:52:45 +0000 > Cc: monnier@iro.umontreal.ca, 66750@debbugs.gnu.org, acorallo@gnu.org, > stefankangas@gmail.com, acm@muc.de > From: Alan Mackenzie > > > > I think you've already decided not to merge feature/named-lambdas. I'm > > > not surprised, but it's a shame. > > > I didn't yet make any decision, because I still hope you will agree > > with at least some of the arguments. Or at least agree to some kind > > of compromise, even if you keep your opinions. > > I don't think Stefan is talking about a compromise. He's talking about > discarding my changes entirely, and starting again from scratch, working > to design principles and with design goals I disagree with. How is that > a compromise? > > Or had you in mind something less drastic? How about if you propose a compromise with which you could live? > A couple of days ago I got the error message: > > emacs-lisp/eieio.el:55:2: Error: Wrong type argument: listp, :autoload-end > > At the indicated file position there was just a `require' form. So there > was no information about where the error happened, what detected the > error, or what function or what variable gave or had the value > :autoload-end. It says little more than "there was an error". This is > what I mean by "horrible". This is what I call "debugging". By and off itself, such a situation is not necessarily anywhere near "horrible". For example, it could be that in the 'require'd file you will easily find the reference to :autoload-end. I also don't necessarily see how this is relevant to the issue at hand. > > If I have a single significant gripe against Emacs Lisp backtraces, it > > is that there's no way of jumping to the offending source line in each > > stack frame, something that is very natural to provide. > > This would be more difficult to implement. Maybe so, but if your feature doesn't bring us closer to that goal, then for me personally it is much less interesting. > > Anonymous lambdas come as a very distant second or third problem, at > > least IME. > > They've been a problem for me, at least. That's why I set about solving > it. And being of a lower priority is no reason to reject an existing > fix. You know very well that priority is not the reason we are arguing. There's no need to bring up irrelevant side-tracking arguments, it doesn't help in any discussion, and more so in this one.