From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Vincent =?UTF-8?Q?Bela=C3=AFche?= Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.bugs Subject: bug#18308: 24.4.50; Info viewer cannot follow menu entry for '(texinfo) @- @hyphenation' Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2014 00:04:25 +0200 Message-ID: <80ppfs2nbq.fsf@gmail.com> References: <80bnre44fc.fsf@gmail.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1408745127 14764 80.91.229.3 (22 Aug 2014 22:05:27 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2014 22:05:27 +0000 (UTC) Cc: Gavin Smith , 18308@debbugs.gnu.org To: Eli Zaretskii , rms@gnu.org Original-X-From: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sat Aug 23 00:05:18 2014 Return-path: Envelope-to: geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1XKwxQ-0004cy-3Q for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Sat, 23 Aug 2014 00:05:16 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:39307 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1XKwxP-0002Hv-KK for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Fri, 22 Aug 2014 18:05:15 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:42446) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1XKwxI-0002Fl-9K for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 22 Aug 2014 18:05:13 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1XKwxD-0002rd-9g for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 22 Aug 2014 18:05:08 -0400 Original-Received: from debbugs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.43]:42893) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1XKwxD-0002qy-4T for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 22 Aug 2014 18:05:03 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-debbugs by debbugs.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1XKwxB-0006ur-Op for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 22 Aug 2014 18:05:02 -0400 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org In-Reply-To: <80bnre44fc.fsf@gmail.com> Resent-From: Vincent =?UTF-8?Q?Bela=C3=AFche?= Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2014 22:05:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 18308 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: Original-Received: via spool by 18308-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B18308.140874509326568 (code B ref 18308); Fri, 22 Aug 2014 22:05:01 +0000 Original-Received: (at 18308) by debbugs.gnu.org; 22 Aug 2014 22:04:53 +0000 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:49836 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1XKwx2-0006uQ-54 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 22 Aug 2014 18:04:52 -0400 Original-Received: from smtp05.smtpout.orange.fr ([80.12.242.127]:33647 helo=smtp.smtpout.orange.fr) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1XKwwy-0006u6-AO for 18308@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 22 Aug 2014 18:04:49 -0400 Original-Received: from CHOUNEK ([92.139.181.243]) by mwinf5d61 with ME id hy4g1o0095FVSzg03y4gi4; Sat, 23 Aug 2014 00:04:41 +0200 X-ME-Helo: CHOUNEK X-ME-Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2014 00:04:41 +0200 X-ME-IP: 92.139.181.243 X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 3.x X-Received-From: 140.186.70.43 X-BeenThere: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org List-Id: "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.bugs:92616 Archived-At: ---------------------------------------- > Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2014 23:57:13 +0300 > From: eliz@gnu.org > Subject: Re: bug#18308: 24.4.50; Info viewer cannot follow menu entry for= '(texinfo) @- @hyphenation' > To: gavinsmith0123@gmail.com > CC: rms@gnu.org; Vincent.b.1@hotmail.fr; 18308@debbugs.gnu.org > > > Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2014 21:12:06 +0100 > > From: Gavin Smith > > Cc: Eli Zaretskii , Vincent Bela=EFche , > > 18308@debbugs.gnu.org > > > > On Fri, Aug 22, 2014 at 6:17 PM, Richard Stallman wrote: > > > I think the real fix for this sort of thing is to develop > > > a replacement for the Info reader which uses HTML. > > > That's why I was enthusiastic about that project when it was announce= d. > > > > Somebody would have to define how HTML should be used for Texinfo manua= ls, e.g.: > > * Naming of HTML files for references between nodes and files > > * How indices should be expressed > > * What version of HTML, what constructs are allowed. > > * Where these files are to be stored in the filesystem > > More importantly: how will I use index-search in an HTML browser. Sorry for the naive comment: Texinfo can already be compiled to HTML (and docbook and quite a few other things)=20 For instance the manuals of jPicEdt have been ported to Texinfo (I have even made some html to texinfo converter for that) and they can be viewed from jPicEdt by some simple java HMTL viewer. So already nothing prevents people to compile all the EMACS manuals to HMTL and browse them with their favorite navigator. Maybe you mean that the HTML viewer has to be embedded into EMACS. What would then be the difference if all the documentation is compiled to HTML and you get it with having, say w3m installed along with EMACS, and call emacs-w3m from C-h i, or any such text oriented web browser for EMACS (http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/w3). Anyway, I think that you need to keep the old info viewer inside EMACS because people --- at least me --- have plenty of info files not related to EMACS in several locations on their hard drive and they like to use EMACS as a viewer --- because EMACS is already running ;-) --- and you may also have info links in org pages and so on --- or some info manuals making some external reference to some node in some other manuals, etc... To me the main advantage of info format is that * it loads in no time (text oriented),=20 * navigation is made faster for all the shortcuts * easier to search the manual=20 BTW --- don't take me wrong, this is not a provocation, nor a joke --- if the point is to go HTML, why not rather use some sort of compressed HTML like the microsoft CHM format. Maybe even this format is open and free and could be used as is. HTML is rather verbous..., but anyway help files are not such a big amount of data and text files are easier to handle in many aspects. Personally I think that one should first think about what sort of advantage you are seeking with going HTML for helpfiles, what is the real motivation: * add some interactivity (javascript, etc...) * render MathML for math or SVG for picture * make fancier look-and-feel * other ... Finally, as an EMACS user, it would be more important to me * if docstring could be written in a sort of texinfo-light format (when you create a package or anything you first do docstring, and then you port this to a manual (so having some texinfo-light format from the beginning would reduce the effort) * if docstring could be localized (texinfo allows that, like the manuals, after all, but the current docstring format sort of force you into English as the text is interpreted) * if you could use within the docstring some pointer to some definition in the manual and withdraw this part only --- this is not just a matter of disk space: * duplication of information is simply evil * to that extent, some package like calc don't have docstrings for math library function because only the manual is maintained, after all why should Jay bother doing the job twice. * that would also make it easier to change the doc language by just switching the locale if one maintain parallel doc tree for each language, and resolve the manual address by falling back to default language doc tree when the manual does not exists in the locale doc tree Concerning the info format, what sort of problem I also see --- still in relation to i18n --- is that one should be able to use exactly the same node names whatever the language, so that the same link can be used, and when the manual is compiled to multifile HTML, you have the same file tree whatever the language. I think that this would also make easier the translation process because it would be easier to relate manuals in two different languages. What I am meaning is that using the same node names should not imply that when the final user is reading a manual written in non-English he/she has to see the real node names unless he/she copy to clipboard the node address, one should be able to specify along with the node name a node local name to be presented by the viewer (menu labels could be used for that for nodes that are referred from a menu, but there could also be some specific texinfo command, and something explicit in the info file also). There should also be more freedom for characters usable in the "node local name" as it is intended for the final user --- no problem if there are forbidden characters in the node name, as long as it is overlayable by the local name in the user's view. Vincent.