From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Drew Adams Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.bugs Subject: bug#22564: Fundamental mode isn't fundamental enough. Date: Sun, 7 Feb 2016 11:43:06 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <7ced4ce9-4804-4ea8-859c-973617d3958e@default> References: <<20160205125559.GC7727@acm.fritz.box>> <<20160206110601.6095.qmail@mail.muc.de>> <> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1454874269 16689 80.91.229.3 (7 Feb 2016 19:44:29 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 7 Feb 2016 19:44:29 +0000 (UTC) Cc: 22564@debbugs.gnu.org To: rms@gnu.org, Alan Mackenzie Original-X-From: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sun Feb 07 20:44:15 2016 Return-path: Envelope-to: geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1aSVFn-0001A8-3q for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Sun, 07 Feb 2016 20:44:15 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:37571 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1aSVFj-0006Zp-33 for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Sun, 07 Feb 2016 14:44:11 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:39059) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1aSVFe-0006ZX-5x for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sun, 07 Feb 2016 14:44:07 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1aSVFa-00045y-SZ for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sun, 07 Feb 2016 14:44:06 -0500 Original-Received: from debbugs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.43]:57155) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1aSVFa-00045u-Oo for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sun, 07 Feb 2016 14:44:02 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-debbugs by debbugs.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.84) (envelope-from ) id 1aSVFa-0006Uu-Jp for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sun, 07 Feb 2016 14:44:02 -0500 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Resent-From: Drew Adams Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Sun, 07 Feb 2016 19:44:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 22564 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: Original-Received: via spool by 22564-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B22564.145487419724840 (code B ref 22564); Sun, 07 Feb 2016 19:44:02 +0000 Original-Received: (at 22564) by debbugs.gnu.org; 7 Feb 2016 19:43:17 +0000 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:37511 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84) (envelope-from ) id 1aSVEq-0006Sa-OQ for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 07 Feb 2016 14:43:16 -0500 Original-Received: from userp1040.oracle.com ([156.151.31.81]:33374) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84) (envelope-from ) id 1aSVEo-0006SN-Bq for 22564@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 07 Feb 2016 14:43:14 -0500 Original-Received: from userv0021.oracle.com (userv0021.oracle.com [156.151.31.71]) by userp1040.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2) with ESMTP id u17Jh8Ho010953 (version=TLSv1 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Sun, 7 Feb 2016 19:43:08 GMT Original-Received: from userv0122.oracle.com (userv0122.oracle.com [156.151.31.75]) by userv0021.oracle.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id u17Jh7Xo017892 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 7 Feb 2016 19:43:07 GMT Original-Received: from abhmp0014.oracle.com (abhmp0014.oracle.com [141.146.116.20]) by userv0122.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id u17Jh74M027812; Sun, 7 Feb 2016 19:43:07 GMT In-Reply-To: <> X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9 (901082) [OL 12.0.6691.5000 (x86)] X-Source-IP: userv0021.oracle.com [156.151.31.71] X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 208.118.235.43 X-BeenThere: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org List-Id: "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.bugs:112651 Archived-At: >> I think fundamental mode existed long before derived modes did. >=20 > Fundamental mode has existed since 1984. The concept of derived modes > came at least 10 years after that. What was always true is that other > major modes obtain their effects by changing some per-buffer values > away from the defaults that are in effect in Fundamental mode. =09=09=09=09=09=09=09 =20 >> To say it shouldn't be used directly by users is a bit strange, IMAO. >=20 > It is meant to be used by users. Creating a buffer puts it in > Fundamental mode. Visiting a file which does not specify any mode, > through its contents or its name, uses Fundamental mode. >=20 > This has always been the case. Well, yes, but in the past it was really fundamental. Now it does fancy "electric" stuff. That's not bare-bones. And now we do have derived modes. Fundamental mode is not only the default default mode for interactive use, it is also used non-interactively, where things like electric-this-&-that make little sense (though they may not interfere in some cases). IMO, if we don't return it to bare-bones interactivity then we should move the fancy interactive features to a mode derived from Fundamental mode and leave Fundamental mode bare-bones - in particular for non-interactive use. Whether that derived mode should be the new default default mode is another question. I don't have a problem if it is, though that wouldn't be my first choice (I would prefer bare-bones interactive behavior too.) IOW, I wouldn't object if the default for interactive use is electric, but I don't think it's a good idea for fancy stuff to be added to the "bottom" of the pyramid (Fundamental mode), which is used also non-interactively.