From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Drew Adams Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.bugs Subject: bug#15101: 24.3.50; debugger-eval-expression broken Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2013 14:12:59 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <79c3e36d-210c-4a44-8033-5baeda94e4a0@default> References: <8cbe16c2-2347-4312-97ee-5fe9a5b03972@default> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1376601259 7699 80.91.229.3 (15 Aug 2013 21:14:19 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2013 21:14:19 +0000 (UTC) Cc: Helmut Eller , 15101-done@debbugs.gnu.org To: Stefan Monnier Original-X-From: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Thu Aug 15 23:14:20 2013 Return-path: Envelope-to: geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1VA4s8-0005SF-C9 for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Thu, 15 Aug 2013 23:14:20 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:55583 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1VA4s7-0006yG-UA for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Thu, 15 Aug 2013 17:14:19 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:59154) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1VA4rx-0006wB-Ct for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Thu, 15 Aug 2013 17:14:16 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1VA4rq-0000jz-76 for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Thu, 15 Aug 2013 17:14:09 -0400 Original-Received: from debbugs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.43]:38642) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1VA4rq-0000jt-3C for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Thu, 15 Aug 2013 17:14:02 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-debbugs by debbugs.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1VA4rp-0000zG-Io for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Thu, 15 Aug 2013 17:14:01 -0400 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Resent-From: Drew Adams Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2013 21:14:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 15101 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: Original-Received: via spool by 15101-done@debbugs.gnu.org id=D15101.13766011933717 (code D ref 15101); Thu, 15 Aug 2013 21:14:01 +0000 Original-Received: (at 15101-done) by debbugs.gnu.org; 15 Aug 2013 21:13:13 +0000 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:32956 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1VA4r2-0000xr-Bu for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 15 Aug 2013 17:13:12 -0400 Original-Received: from aserp1040.oracle.com ([141.146.126.69]:31909) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1VA4qz-0000xa-K3 for 15101-done@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 15 Aug 2013 17:13:10 -0400 Original-Received: from acsinet21.oracle.com (acsinet21.oracle.com [141.146.126.237]) by aserp1040.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.1/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.1) with ESMTP id r7FLD0XM014192 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Thu, 15 Aug 2013 21:13:01 GMT Original-Received: from aserz7022.oracle.com (aserz7022.oracle.com [141.146.126.231]) by acsinet21.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id r7FLCxKd008253 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 15 Aug 2013 21:13:00 GMT Original-Received: from abhmt120.oracle.com (abhmt120.oracle.com [141.146.116.72]) by aserz7022.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id r7FLCxPD006682; Thu, 15 Aug 2013 21:12:59 GMT In-Reply-To: X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.8 (707110) [OL 12.0.6668.5000 (x86)] X-Source-IP: acsinet21.oracle.com [141.146.126.237] X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 3.x X-Received-From: 140.186.70.43 X-BeenThere: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org List-Id: "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.bugs:77406 Archived-At: > > A user will still be tripped up by the undocumented and unguessable > > behavior. >=20 > Check the doc before saying it's not documented. > And yes, NEWS is part of the doc. I mentioned clearly that I *did* check the doc: >> AFAICT, there is no mention of this in the doc yet. I see that >> "lexical" is mentioned only briefly in (elisp) `Edebug Eval' - and >> nothing about this. And it is not mentioned at all in the manual >> sections about the standard, non-edebug debugger (i.e., command >> `debug'). But yes, I had checked only in the most recent build I have (2013-08-08). Mea culpa. If you updated the doc as a result of this bug report (today), and your update addresses all of the concerns I mentioned, great. Pat on back. But if you simply added a blurb to NEWS about this then no, that does not handle the problem adequately for users. If that's all you did then please help users more than that. Yes, NEWS is a part of the doc. That doesn't make it the only place to cover something like this. (A change log is also doc. As is a code comment.) NEWS is doc that users consult to find out about significant changes, but it is not the doc they consult to find out about the product features and how to use them. You don't look only, or even mainly, in NEWS to find out what `C-x C-f' does and how to use it. Likewise, `e' in the debugger. You expect the manuals and `C-h k C-x C-f' to tell you that. And you expect that information to be up-to-date and relatively complete. Users should not need to consult NEWS to find out why something like `e', which they have been using for decades, suddenly does not do what they expect. Each of the debugger commands/keys, of which `e' is one, is described in the Elisp manual. User-visible changes to the behavior should result in an update of that doc. FWIW, I have now checked the latest `debugging.texi' in BZR (http://bzr.savannah.gnu.org/lh/emacs/trunk/annotate/head:/doc/lispref/debu= gging.texi). Unfortunately, I see no change there from what has been there for the description of `e' for a long time. Nothing about any of the things discussed in this thread. No help for a user about cursor on first line; which evaluation context is used when not on first line; differences between lexical and dynamic; etc. Nada. Not a good thing for users.