bug#22987: 24.5; Incorrect index entry for (elisp) `‘help-e

bug#22987: 24.5; Incorrect index entry for (elisp) `‘help-e

[Drew Adams]

 =?gb2312?B?Y2hvoa8=?= event'
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In the Elisp manual, `i help-echo TAB' does not show you this index
entry: =3DA1=3DAEhelp-echo=3DA1=3DAF event.  (Those are actually single
curly quotes, but I guess the paste into my mail client doesn't
DTRT in this context.)

You will see that index entry only if you have substring completion.
The only index-entry candidates you see are these, none of which
wrap `help-echo' in (curly) quotes:

 help-echo (overlay property)
 help-echo (text property)
 help-echo, customization keyword

The index entry "=3DA1=3DAEhelp-echo=3DA1=3DAF event" seems misguided.
(And likely the same is true of other events documented in that node.)


In GNU Emacs 24.5.1 (i686-pc-mingw32)
 of 2015-04-11 on LEG570
Windowing system distributor `Microsoft Corp.', version 6.1.7601
Configured using:
 `configure --prefix=3D3D/c/usr --host=3D3Di686-pc-mingw32'

bug#22987: 24.5; Incorrect index entry for (elisp) `‘help-e

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2016 07:52:12 -0800 (PST)
> From: Drew Adams <drew.adams@oracle.com>
> 
> In the Elisp manual, `i help-echo TAB' does not show you this index
> entry: =3DA1=3DAEhelp-echo=3DA1=3DAF event.  (Those are actually single
> curly quotes, but I guess the paste into my mail client doesn't
> DTRT in this context.)
> 
> You will see that index entry only if you have substring completion.

I cannot reproduce this in the recent pretest of Emacs 25.  I do see
the entry without substring completion

> The index entry "=3DA1=3DAEhelp-echo=3DA1=3DAF event" seems misguided.

I don't see such an index entry.  I see this instead:

  * help-echo event:                       Misc Events.         (line  55)

So I'm not really sure what you see and why.

bug#22987: 24.5; Incorrect index entry for (elisp) `‘help-e

[Drew Adams]

> > You will see that index entry only if you have substring completion.
> 
> I cannot reproduce this in the recent pretest of Emacs 25.  I do see
> the entry without substring completion

The bug is filed for Emacs 24.5, the latest Emacs release.
If the bug has been fixed since then, great.

I cannot use any Emacs 25 pretest that I've found - at all.
It simply crashes almost immediately.  And no, I don't have
the time to dig into why.

> > The index entry "‘help-echo’ event" seems misguided.
> 
> I don't see such an index entry.  I see this instead:
> 
>   * help-echo event:                  Misc Events.         (line  55)

Which is clearly why you don't need substring completion - there
are no single curly quotes around the index entry, in your pretest.
There are such quotes around the entry in the release.

> So I'm not really sure what you see and why.

You're not sure what and why?  Try using the latest release, which
the bug pertains to:

In GNU Emacs 24.5.1 (i686-pc-mingw32)
 of 2015-04-11 on LEG570
Windowing system distributor `Microsoft Corp.', version 6.1.7601
Configured using:
 `configure --prefix=3D3D/c/usr --host=3D3Di686-pc-mingw32'

Here is what is in the index of the release:

* help-command:                          Help Functions.      (line  43)
* help-echo (overlay property):          Overlay Properties.  (line 114)
* help-echo (text property):             Special Properties.  (line  83)
* ‘help-echo’ event:                     Misc Events.         (line  55)
* help-echo, customization keyword:      Type Keywords.       (line  98)
* help-event-list:                       Help Functions.      (line  69)

(I can send a screenshot if this is not clear enough as is.)

bug#22987: 24.5; Incorrect index entry for (elisp) `‘help-e

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2016 08:29:48 -0800 (PST)
> From: Drew Adams <drew.adams@oracle.com>
> Cc: 22987@debbugs.gnu.org
> 
> You're not sure what and why?  Try using the latest release, which
> the bug pertains to:
> 
> In GNU Emacs 24.5.1 (i686-pc-mingw32)
>  of 2015-04-11 on LEG570
> Windowing system distributor `Microsoft Corp.', version 6.1.7601
> Configured using:
>  `configure --prefix=3D3D/c/usr --host=3D3Di686-pc-mingw32'
> 
> Here is what is in the index of the release:
> 
> * help-command:                          Help Functions.      (line  43)
> * help-echo (overlay property):          Overlay Properties.  (line 114)
> * help-echo (text property):             Special Properties.  (line  83)
> * ‘help-echo’ event:                     Misc Events.         (line  55)

I think this is because of the version of Texinfo used to create that
file.  The latest Texinfo doesn't put quotes there.

bug#22987: 24.5; Incorrect index entry for (elisp) `‘help-e

[Drew Adams]

> > Here is what is in the index of the release:
> >
> > * help-command:                          Help Functions.      (line  43)
> > * help-echo (overlay property):          Overlay Properties.  (line 114)
> > * help-echo (text property):             Special Properties.  (line  83)
> > * ‘help-echo’ event:                     Misc Events.         (line  55)
> 
> I think this is because of the version of Texinfo used to create that
> file.  The latest Texinfo doesn't put quotes there.

OK.  Feel free to close the bug if you think it is no longer relevant.
Thx.

bug#22987: 24.5; Incorrect index entry for (elisp) `‘help-e

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2016 10:25:02 -0800 (PST)
> From: Drew Adams <drew.adams@oracle.com>
> Cc: 22987@debbugs.gnu.org
> 
> > > Here is what is in the index of the release:
> > >
> > > * help-command:                          Help Functions.      (line  43)
> > > * help-echo (overlay property):          Overlay Properties.  (line 114)
> > > * help-echo (text property):             Special Properties.  (line  83)
> > > * ‘help-echo’ event:                     Misc Events.         (line  55)
> > 
> > I think this is because of the version of Texinfo used to create that
> > file.  The latest Texinfo doesn't put quotes there.
> 
> OK.  Feel free to close the bug if you think it is no longer relevant.

Done.

If you see this in future releases, please file a bug report asking
whoever produced the distribution to use the latest Texinfo.

bug#22987: 24.5; Incorrect index entry for (elisp) `‘help-e

[John Wiegley]

>>>>> Drew Adams <drew.adams@oracle.com> writes:

> I cannot use any Emacs 25 pretest that I've found - at all. It simply
> crashes almost immediately. And no, I don't have the time to dig into why.

Whoa, that's pretty serious, Drew!  Is that a pretest built with debugging
enabled?  What debuggers do you have available?  I could write down some steps
for you to follow.

-- 
John Wiegley                  GPG fingerprint = 4710 CF98 AF9B 327B B80F
http://newartisans.com                          60E1 46C4 BD1A 7AC1 4BA2

bug#22987: 24.5; Incorrect index entry for (elisp) `?help-e

[Drew Adams]

> > I cannot use any Emacs 25 pretest that I've found - at all. It simply
> > crashes almost immediately. And no, I don't have the time to dig into why.
> 
> Whoa, that's pretty serious, Drew!  Is that a pretest built with debugging
> enabled?  What debuggers do you have available?  I could write down some
> steps for you to follow.

This the most recent pretest build I have:

In GNU Emacs 25.0.90.4 (i686-w64-mingw32)
 of 2016-03-20 built on LAPHROAIG
Windowing system distributor 'Microsoft Corp.', version 6.1.7601
Configured using:
 'configure --host=i686-w64-mingw32 --without-dbus
 --without-compress-install CFLAGS=-static'

I have no idea whether, or what, debugging might be enabled
in that.

I don't really have time now to debug this anyway, but if you
want to send some steps to follow, thank you.  Maybe I'll get
some time later this summer.

Otherwise, hopefully someone else will run into the same problem
eventually.  Otherwise, I'll maybe have to stay with Emacs 24.5.

I've had such crashes with all Emacs 25 builds since early 2015,
IIRC (not just pretests).  There is never any obvious connection
with anything that I am doing when a crash occurs.  Crashing
seems random.  A wild guess would be that the actual problem
occurs sometime earlier, and that it is in the C layer.

I generally have been using only Emacs 24.5, since 25 is
unusable for me.  I use 25 only to check info about some mail or
bug thread or a user question - e.g. a new feature, and I often
have to restart Emacs multiple times to be able to do even that,
because of the quick crashing.

bug#22987: 24.5; Incorrect index entry for (elisp) `?help-e

[John Wiegley]

>>>>> Drew Adams <drew.adams@oracle.com> writes:

> Otherwise, hopefully someone else will run into the same problem eventually.
> Otherwise, I'll maybe have to stay with Emacs 24.5.

Conversely, if you can send me your build steps, I can make a pretest build in
Windows and try it there.  What about the prebuilt binaries that Phil Lord
should have uploaded to the FTP server by now. Do those work?

-- 
John Wiegley                  GPG fingerprint = 4710 CF98 AF9B 327B B80F
http://newartisans.com                          60E1 46C4 BD1A 7AC1 4BA2

bug#22987: 24.5; Incorrect index entry for (elisp) `?help-e

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: John Wiegley <jwiegley@gmail.com>
> Cc: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org>,  22987@debbugs.gnu.org, Phillip Lord <phillip.lord@russet.org.uk>
> Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2016 22:56:50 -0700
> 
> >>>>> Drew Adams <drew.adams@oracle.com> writes:
> 
> > Otherwise, hopefully someone else will run into the same problem eventually.
> > Otherwise, I'll maybe have to stay with Emacs 24.5.
> 
> Conversely, if you can send me your build steps, I can make a pretest build in
> Windows and try it there.  What about the prebuilt binaries that Phil Lord
> should have uploaded to the FTP server by now. Do those work?

John, this isn't a build problem.  This is a problem that is triggered
by something specific to Drew's use patterns of Emacs, and/or his
system setup.  Given the long history of these irreproducible crashes
(which I suspect are mostly assertion violations, thus they don't
happen in a release), I'm quite sure there's something truly unique in
how Drew uses Emacs or sets it (and the support utilities) up, because
no one has ever succeeded in reproducing anything even close, as far
as the frequency of the crashes is concerned.

bug#22987: 24.5; Incorrect index entry for (elisp) `?help-e

[Drew Adams]

> > Otherwise, hopefully someone else will run into the same problem
> > eventually.  Otherwise, I'll maybe have to stay with Emacs 24.5.
> 
> Conversely, if you can send me your build steps, I can make a pretest build
> in Windows and try it there.  What about the prebuilt binaries that Phil Lord
> should have uploaded to the FTP server by now. Do those work?

I don't build Emacs.  The pretests I have _are_ those from the
FTP server by Phil Lord.  The one I mentioned is from 3/20.
The one on the site now is dated 3/21.  It does not seem that
multiple builds from different dates are available on that site -
the next one uploaded apparently just replaces the last one.

To be more clear: I have had some crashes using emacs -Q, but
generally when I try to make use of Emacs 25 it is with my setup,
which, among other things, uses a standalone minibuffer frame.
That is not common for Emacs users.  Likewise, the use of other
features, such as Icicles.

If this were something easily repeatable I would bisect my setup
to narrow down a repro recipe.  But it is not - there seems to
be no clear relation between the crash and something particular
that I do.

I really don't have the time to look into this now.  I have spent
some time in the past looking into it, but evidently not enough
to learn anything helpful about this.  I was hoping that the
emacs_backtrace.txt files would provide some help, but apparently
they are useless.

I apparently downloaded a version of GDB in 2015, but I don't
recall from where.  There is a gdb.exe, but if I double-click
that to run it I just get a message that guile.exe has stopped
working, plus these messages:

 Throw without catch before boot:
 Throw to key misc-error with args ("primitive-load-path"
 "Unable to find file ~S in load path" ("ice-9/boot-9") #f)Aborting.

 This application has requested the Runtime to terminate it in
 an unusual way.  Please contact the application's support team
 for more information.

If you send me some instructions that tell me (1) where to get
a Windows 64-bit (or 32-bit?) binary GDB, (2) how to run Emacs
under it, to obtain the info you need, I will try to take a
look when I get some time.  Sorry for the trouble.

bug#22987: 24.5; Incorrect index entry for (elisp) `?help-e

[Marcin Borkowski]

On 2016-03-27, at 17:03, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> wrote:

> [...] I'm quite sure there's something truly unique in
> how Drew uses Emacs [...]

That is most certainly true.  (Sorry, couldn't help it.  And I mean it
as a compliment!)

Best,

-- 
Marcin Borkowski
http://octd.wmi.amu.edu.pl/en/Marcin_Borkowski
Faculty of Mathematics and Computer Science
Adam Mickiewicz University

bug#22987: 24.5; Incorrect index entry for (elisp) `?help-e

[Drew Adams]

> > [...] I'm quite sure there's something truly unique in
> > how Drew uses Emacs [...]
> 
> That is most certainly true.  (Sorry, couldn't help it.
> And I mean it as a compliment!)

;-)

bug#22987: 24.5; Incorrect index entry for (elisp) `?help-e

[John Wiegley]

>>>>> Drew Adams <drew.adams@oracle.com> writes:

> If you send me some instructions that tell me (1) where to get a Windows
> 64-bit (or 32-bit?) binary GDB, (2) how to run Emacs under it, to obtain the
> info you need, I will try to take a look when I get some time. Sorry for the
> trouble.

Is it possible to send me a copy of your environment?  That might be simpler
than debugging at a distance, because if I can reproduce it here, than I can
do the simplifying for Eli and send it along.

-- 
John Wiegley                  GPG fingerprint = 4710 CF98 AF9B 327B B80F
http://newartisans.com                          60E1 46C4 BD1A 7AC1 4BA2

bug#22987: 24.5; Incorrect index entry for (elisp) `?help-e

[Drew Adams]

> > If you send me some instructions that tell me (1) where to get a Windows
> > 64-bit (or 32-bit?) binary GDB, (2) how to run Emacs under it, to obtain
> > the info you need, I will try to take a look when I get some time.
> 
> Is it possible to send me a copy of your environment?  That might be simpler
> than debugging at a distance, because if I can reproduce it here, than I can
> do the simplifying for Eli and send it along.

That wouldn't be feasible, I'm afraid.  Please send me some instructions
when you can, and I'll try to find some time to look at it.  As I am
presumably the only one affected by this, so far, I guess there is no
hurry to fix it, apart from my not using Emacs 25 much and so not
providing much feedback on it.  Thx.