bug#24995: 25.1; Emacs manual: no doc on "bracketed paste mode"

bug#24995: 25.1; Emacs manual: no doc on "bracketed paste mode"

[Drew Adams]

What is touted as a "nifty new feature" and an "advanced capability"
in the Antinews is not mentioned anywhere else.  If it's so nifty
and advanced, say something about it, somewhere.  What is it?  What
can I do with it?  If you're going to call it out, at least consider
providing a link to the NEWS entry for it from the place that it's
mentioned in the manual.

In GNU Emacs 25.1.1 (x86_64-w64-mingw32)
 of 2016-09-17 built on LAPHROAIG
Windowing system distributor 'Microsoft Corp.', version 6.1.7601
Configured using:
 'configure --without-dbus --without-compress-install CFLAGS=-static'

bug#24995: 25.1; Emacs manual: no doc on "bracketed paste mode"

[Drew Adams]

In particular, how do you turn it off?
http://emacs.stackexchange.com/q/28851/105

`C-h f brack TAB' didn't help.
`C-h v brack TAB' didn't help.

As the OP for that question said, googling didn't help.

bug#24995: 25.1; Emacs manual: no doc on "bracketed paste mode"

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2016 18:50:24 -0800 (PST)
> From: Drew Adams <drew.adams@oracle.com>
> 
> What is touted as a "nifty new feature" and an "advanced capability"
> in the Antinews is not mentioned anywhere else.

That's inaccurate: it is mentioned in NEWS.  (How do you think
Antinews is being prepared?)

> If it's so nifty and advanced, say something about it, somewhere.
> What is it?  What can I do with it?

The bracketed paste mode is not an Emacs feature, it's a feature of
the terminal.  Emacs just uses it when it thinks it's available.  If
you want to learn about this, you should look in the terminal-related
documentation, or on the net.  I don't think Emacs should describe
features of terminals it runs on.

> In particular, how do you turn it off?
> http://emacs.stackexchange.com/q/28851/105
> 
> `C-h f brack TAB' didn't help.
> `C-h v brack TAB' didn't help.
> 
> As the OP for that question said, googling didn't help.

That's fine, because there's no way to turn it off, so there's nothing
to document.

IOW, I don't think there's any documentation problem here.

I do think it would be nice to let users disable use of this feature,
even if the terminal supports it.  Since we do that with other xterm
extensions (see xterm-extra-capabilities), we should probably offer
the same level of control for this capability, either as part of
getSelection, or as a separate feature.

Philipp, would you like to add this on the emacs-25 branch?

TIA

bug#24995: 25.1; Emacs manual: no doc on "bracketed paste mode"

[Drew Adams]

> > What is touted as a "nifty new feature" and an "advanced
> > capability" in the Antinews is not mentioned anywhere else.
> 
> That's inaccurate: it is mentioned in NEWS.  (How do you think
> Antinews is being prepared?)

Of course, you want to argue...

Clearly, based on the Subject line, I meant:

What is touted ... in the `Antinews' NODE OF THE EMACS MANUAL
as ... is not mentioned anywhere else IN THE EMACS MANUAL.

(And I specifically stated that it is mentioned in the NEWS.
This bug report is about the Emacs manual.)

> > If it's so nifty and advanced, say something about it, somewhere.
> > What is it?  What can I do with it?
> 
> The bracketed paste mode is not an Emacs feature, it's a feature of
> the terminal.  Emacs just uses it when it thinks it's available.  If
> you want to learn about this, you should look in the terminal-
> related documentation, or on the net.  I don't think Emacs should 
> describe features of terminals it runs on.
> 
> > In particular, how do you turn it off?
> > http://emacs.stackexchange.com/q/28851/105
> >
> > `C-h f brack TAB' didn't help.
> > `C-h v brack TAB' didn't help.
> >
> > As the OP for that question said, googling didn't help.
> 
> That's fine, because there's no way to turn it off, so there's
> nothing to document.
> 
> IOW, I don't think there's any documentation problem here.

Too bad.

> I do think it would be nice to let users disable use of this
> feature, even if the terminal supports it.  Since we do that
> with other xterm extensions (see xterm-extra-capabilities),
> we should probably offer the same level of control for this 
> capability, either as part of getSelection, or as a separate
> feature.

Clearly.

If Emacs can suddenly start supporting it then Emacs can
provide a way to turn it off (it was, in effect, off before).

> Philipp, would you like to add this on the emacs-25 branch?

Yes, thank you.

bug#24995: 25.1; Emacs manual: no doc on "bracketed paste mode"

[Philipp Stephani]

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Drew Adams <drew.adams@oracle.com> schrieb am Mi., 23. Nov. 2016 um
17:43 Uhr:

>
> > I do think it would be nice to let users disable use of this
> > feature, even if the terminal supports it.  Since we do that
> > with other xterm extensions (see xterm-extra-capabilities),
> > we should probably offer the same level of control for this
> > capability, either as part of getSelection, or as a separate
> > feature.
>
> Clearly.
>
> If Emacs can suddenly start supporting it then Emacs can
> provide a way to turn it off (it was, in effect, off before).
>
> > Philipp, would you like to add this on the emacs-25 branch?
>
> Yes, thank you.
>

There shouldn't be any need for turning off bracketed pasting. It's just a
separate input key sequence that is either sent or not sent by the terminal
emulator. This isn't different from e.g. the Hyper key; there's also no
option to disable the latter.
The issue here is that the terminal emulator sends various escape sequences
to the running program; such escape sequences cannot in general be used as
custom key sequences, because they are intended to have a special
predefined meaning.

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bug#24995: 25.1; Emacs manual: no doc on "bracketed paste mode"

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Philipp Stephani <p.stephani2@gmail.com>
> Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2016 21:11:36 +0000
> Cc: 24995@debbugs.gnu.org
> 
>  > I do think it would be nice to let users disable use of this
>  > feature, even if the terminal supports it. Since we do that
>  > with other xterm extensions (see xterm-extra-capabilities),
>  > we should probably offer the same level of control for this
>  > capability, either as part of getSelection, or as a separate
>  > feature.
> 
>  Clearly.
> 
>  If Emacs can suddenly start supporting it then Emacs can
>  provide a way to turn it off (it was, in effect, off before).
> 
>  > Philipp, would you like to add this on the emacs-25 branch?
> 
>  Yes, thank you.
> 
> There shouldn't be any need for turning off bracketed pasting. It's just a separate input key sequence that is
> either sent or not sent by the terminal emulator. This isn't different from e.g. the Hyper key; there's also no
> option to disable the latter.

That is true, but we still allow the user to control the other similar
extensions, which all fit your description.  So why should support for
bracketed paste mode be different?  It's inconsistent, and I can't
think of a reason why we would want this inconsistency.

bug#24995: 25.1; Emacs manual: no doc on "bracketed paste mode"

[Philipp Stephani]

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Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> schrieb am Mo., 28. Nov. 2016 um 04:25 Uhr:

> > From: Philipp Stephani <p.stephani2@gmail.com>
> > Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2016 21:11:36 +0000
> > Cc: 24995@debbugs.gnu.org
> >
> >  > I do think it would be nice to let users disable use of this
> >  > feature, even if the terminal supports it. Since we do that
> >  > with other xterm extensions (see xterm-extra-capabilities),
> >  > we should probably offer the same level of control for this
> >  > capability, either as part of getSelection, or as a separate
> >  > feature.
> >
> >  Clearly.
> >
> >  If Emacs can suddenly start supporting it then Emacs can
> >  provide a way to turn it off (it was, in effect, off before).
> >
> >  > Philipp, would you like to add this on the emacs-25 branch?
> >
> >  Yes, thank you.
> >
> > There shouldn't be any need for turning off bracketed pasting. It's just
> a separate input key sequence that is
> > either sent or not sent by the terminal emulator. This isn't different
> from e.g. the Hyper key; there's also no
> > option to disable the latter.
>
> That is true, but we still allow the user to control the other similar
> extensions, which all fit your description.  So why should support for
> bracketed paste mode be different?  It's inconsistent, and I can't
> think of a reason why we would want this inconsistency.
>

I don't think that inconsistency is a strong enough reason to introduce a
customization option, especially for a setting that has no user-visible
behavior. There are certainly several other optimizations in the the Emacs
code base that can't be turned off.

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bug#24995: 25.1; Emacs manual: no doc on "bracketed paste mode"

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Philipp Stephani <p.stephani2@gmail.com>
> Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2016 21:11:19 +0000
> Cc: drew.adams@oracle.com, 24995@debbugs.gnu.org
> 
>  That is true, but we still allow the user to control the other similar
>  extensions, which all fit your description. So why should support for
>  bracketed paste mode be different? It's inconsistent, and I can't
>  think of a reason why we would want this inconsistency.
> 
> I don't think that inconsistency is a strong enough reason to introduce a customization option, especially for a
> setting that has no user-visible behavior. There are certainly several other optimizations in the the Emacs
> code base that can't be turned off. 

I disagree, but let's defer to users' complaints (or lack thereof) to
be the judge.

bug#24995: 25.1; Emacs manual: no doc on "bracketed paste mode"

[Stefan Kangas]

tags 24995 + wontfix
close 24995
thanks

Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:

>> Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2016 18:50:24 -0800 (PST)
>> From: Drew Adams <drew.adams@oracle.com>
>> 
>> What is touted as a "nifty new feature" and an "advanced capability"
>> in the Antinews is not mentioned anywhere else.
>
> That's inaccurate: it is mentioned in NEWS.  (How do you think
> Antinews is being prepared?)
>
>> If it's so nifty and advanced, say something about it, somewhere.
>> What is it?  What can I do with it?
>
> The bracketed paste mode is not an Emacs feature, it's a feature of
> the terminal.  Emacs just uses it when it thinks it's available.  If
> you want to learn about this, you should look in the terminal-related
> documentation, or on the net.  I don't think Emacs should describe
> features of terminals it runs on.
>
>> In particular, how do you turn it off?
>> http://emacs.stackexchange.com/q/28851/105
>> 
>> `C-h f brack TAB' didn't help.
>> `C-h v brack TAB' didn't help.
>> 
>> As the OP for that question said, googling didn't help.
>
> That's fine, because there's no way to turn it off, so there's nothing
> to document.
>
> IOW, I don't think there's any documentation problem here.

With the above, and seeing nothing else to do here, I'll close this as
wontfix.

Best regards,
Stefan Kangas