From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: Paul Eggert Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.bugs Subject: bug#33796: 27.0.50; Use utf-8 is all our Elisp files Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2018 13:49:44 -0800 Organization: UCLA Computer Science Department Message-ID: <5f113128-36c9-30c6-3413-8dc36051e058@cs.ucla.edu> References: <3fd27fe5-e650-b207-fdd4-36f805b89b4d@cs.ucla.edu> <83bm5hcroa.fsf@gnu.org> <9f33127d-f01b-b138-7a0c-ffeac7b77938@cs.ucla.edu> <835zvochdj.fsf@gnu.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: blaine.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: blaine.gmane.org 1545342495 14878 195.159.176.226 (20 Dec 2018 21:48:15 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@blaine.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2018 21:48:15 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.3.1 Cc: monnier@iro.umontreal.ca, 33796@debbugs.gnu.org To: Eli Zaretskii , Kenichi Handa Original-X-From: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Thu Dec 20 22:48:11 2018 Return-path: Envelope-to: geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by blaine.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ga6Ar-0003if-Ds for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; 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Thu, 20 Dec 2018 13:49:46 -0800 (PST) Original-Received: from zimbra.cs.ucla.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (zimbra.cs.ucla.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10032) with ESMTP id EvMUf-pvtHUL; Thu, 20 Dec 2018 13:49:45 -0800 (PST) Original-Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zimbra.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 41448160A71; Thu, 20 Dec 2018 13:49:45 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at zimbra.cs.ucla.edu Original-Received: from zimbra.cs.ucla.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (zimbra.cs.ucla.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id uBZPusUCWrLp; Thu, 20 Dec 2018 13:49:45 -0800 (PST) Original-Received: from Penguin.CS.UCLA.EDU (Penguin.CS.UCLA.EDU [131.179.64.200]) by zimbra.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 1F9E5160941; Thu, 20 Dec 2018 13:49:45 -0800 (PST) Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Autocrypt: addr=eggert@cs.ucla.edu; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= xsFNBEyAcmQBEADAAyH2xoTu7ppG5D3a8FMZEon74dCvc4+q1XA2J2tBy2pwaTqfhpxxdGA9 Jj50UJ3PD4bSUEgN8tLZ0san47l5XTAFLi2456ciSl5m8sKaHlGdt9XmAAtmXqeZVIYX/UFS 96fDzf4xhEmm/y7LbYEPQdUdxu47xA5KhTYp5bltF3WYDz1Ygd7gx07Auwp7iw7eNvnoDTAl KAl8KYDZzbDNCQGEbpY3efZIvPdeI+FWQN4W+kghy+P6au6PrIIhYraeua7XDdb2LS1en3Ss mE3QjqfRqI/A2ue8JMwsvXe/WK38Ezs6x74iTaqI3AFH6ilAhDqpMnd/msSESNFt76DiO1ZK QMr9amVPknjfPmJISqdhgB1DlEdw34sROf6V8mZw0xfqT6PKE46LcFefzs0kbg4GORf8vjG2 Sf1tk5eU8MBiyN/bZ03bKNjNYMpODDQQwuP84kYLkX2wBxxMAhBxwbDVZudzxDZJ1C2VXujC OJVxq2kljBM9ETYuUGqd75AW2LXrLw6+MuIsHFAYAgRr7+KcwDgBAfwhPBYX34nSSiHlmLC+ KaHLeCLF5ZI2vKm3HEeCTtlOg7xZEONgwzL+fdKo+D6SoC8RRxJKs8a3sVfI4t6CnrQzvJbB n6gxdgCu5i29J1QCYrCYvql2UyFPAK+do99/1jOXT4m2836j1wARAQABzSBQYXVsIEVnZ2Vy dCA8ZWdnZXJ0QGNzLnVjbGEuZWR1PsLBfgQTAQIAKAUCTIByZAIbAwUJEswDAAYLCQgHAwIG FQgCCQoLBBYCAwECH In-Reply-To: <835zvochdj.fsf@gnu.org> Content-Language: en-US X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 208.118.235.43 X-BeenThere: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org List-Id: "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "bug-gnu-emacs" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.bugs:153655 Archived-At: On 12/20/18 8:06 AM, Eli Zaretskii wrote: > my opinion should also count, right? Of course, although my impression was that you weren't expressing an=20 opinion and were soliciting opinions. If your opinion is that we should=20 not make the change, then of course that counts. > we need the opinion of people > who might be actually affected by the proposed change, I assume you mean that we need the opinion of people who would be=20 affected _negatively_. Stefan and I would actually be affected=20 _positively_ by the proposed change, for the reasons we stated. > All 3 of us simply don't care, No, actually I do care. Non-UTF-8 source files are a real annoyance for=20 me, on a fairly regular basis. Stefan seems to care too, though I=20 suspect he doesn't care as much as I do. >=C2=A0 . Displaying HELLO doesn't show "gibberish", it shows UTF-8 enco= ded >=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 text with pure-ASCII markup. You're right. My apologies: when I wrote "gibberish" I was looking at=20 the output of "git diff emacs-26..master etc/HELLO", which does indeed=20 display gibberish but that's not the current encoding's fault. > But since in your opinion the current situation is a >=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 "disaster", you seem to be saying that we should go = back to ISO-2022? Not at all, but I do think we should cut down on the unnecessary markup=20 in that file. The markup should be used only when it helps. Text like=20 "mule-unicode-0100-24ff " is not=20 helping anybody; the file should just contain " " there. Most of the=20 markup in that file is not necessary for proper display, and just gets=20 in the way when using tools other than Emacs. >=C2=A0 . By the above reasoning, if Emacs is enhanced to interpret HTML= /XML >=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 and show typefaces instead of markup, you will see t= hat as a >=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 regression and complain that raw HTML files are "gib= berish"? I hope Emacs doesn't do any such thing by default. I often use Emacs to=20 edit .html and .xml files, and if it attempted to render these files by=20 default I would be inconvenienced. Presumably there would be an option=20 to keep the old behavior, and I'd use that option. >=C2=A0 . You have find-file-literally to show you HELLO exactly as any >=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 text-mode tool will see it No, because find-file-literally shows hard-to-read stuff like this: greek-iso8859-7Greek=20 (\316\265\316\273\316\273\316\267\316\275\316\271\316\272\316\254)=20 \316\223\316\265\316\271\316\254 \317\203\316\261\317\202 which differs from (and is even worse than) what an ordinary tool like=20 git or cat shows: greek-iso8859-7Greek (=CE=B5=CE=BB=CE= =BB=CE=B7=CE=BD=CE=B9=CE=BA=CE=AC)=C2=A0=C2=A0=20 =CE=93=CE=B5=CE=B9=CE=AC =CF=83=CE=B1=CF=82 It would be better to remove this particular markup, so that git etc.=20 would show this: Greek (=CE=B5=CE=BB=CE=BB=CE=B7=CE=BD=CE=B9=CE=BA=CE=AC)=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =CE=93=CE=B5=CE=B9=CE=AC =CF=83=CE=B1=CF=82 which is what Emacs ordinarily shows. >=C2=A0 . No experience in Enriched mode is needed to edit HELLO, you ju= st >=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 need to apply text properties (via facemenu.el comma= nds or the >=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 menu-bar's Edit->Text Properties menu).=C2=A0 And th= ese properties are >=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 optional. Let's leave most of them out then, as they're not working well in=20 etc/HELLO. I don't use that menu, but I took your hint and just now=20 tried it, by selecting the abovementioned word "=CE=B5=CE=BB=CE=BB=CE=B7=CE= =BD=CE=B9=CE=BA=CE=AC" and menuing to=20 Edit > Text Properties > Describe Properties, but all it said was 'Text=20 content at position 1530: There are text properties here: unknown=20 ("x-charset")'. This missed the point that the word's character set is=20 greek-iso8859-7 which is a special hack that hints to Emacs (and nobody=20 else, I guess? I couldn't find documentation for this stuff even in the=20 Emacs manuals) that the text should be displayed with a Greek font=20 instead of the same Greek font that Emacs would be using anyway. And I=20 didn't see an easy way to see visually that the this (unnecessary)=20 hint is misplaced, since it should be placed so that it=20 applies only to the Greek text and not to the surrounding English text=20 in the same line.